A reply regarding question of "Holy Tradition'

[Valerie]

So i asked a question and was given this:

Valerie Jean ,

"And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life." 1 John 5:20

The Faith was "once for all delivered unto the saints" (Jude 3) when the Spirit of Truth came, who would guide YOU (plural, i.e., the Apostles to whom the Lord was speaking and their successors) into ALL truth.

What was understood to be Truth from the beginning was not necessarily clarified from the beginning. It was only as persons began to deviate from this original "understanding" of Truth and teach contrary to it that the Church has ever spoken dogmatically to clarify the Truth.

If we begin to say that certain things were vague and not understood from the beginning, then we open the door to the strong delusion, when "science falsely so-called" shall be used to subvert the Truth by perverting the Scriptures. We see this in the modern teaching that the woman's headcovering is her hair, or that it was only because of Corinthian prostitutes that Paul commanded it, or that there's neither male nor female so it's no longer required, or that it is only required in Church, or whatever other lie contradicts the Truth borne witness to by both Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition. And those who have swallowed this lie are now perverting the Truth with the lie that Paul only forbade promiscuous homosexual relationships, etc.

As we read today in our Epistle from 2 Thess 2, holding fast to both the Holy Scriptures and Holy Tradition are necessary to keep us from being swept away by "the lie" by which the spirit of antichrist, the "mystery of iniquity", is deceiving the multitudes in this age of apostasy.

For more information, read the excellent discussion of Scripture and Tradition by Elder Cleopa of blessed memory, the author of the O.P.

http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/ec_ho ... ition.aspx

http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/ec_ho ... ition.aspx

[Soloist]

It sounds nice, it even looks nice to be able to lay down all the debating, the arguing, the misunderstanding and just listen to a man say that the truth has been preserved through the church.

If we begin to say that certain things were vague and not understood from the beginning, then we open the door to the strong delusion, when "science falsely so-called" shall be used to subvert the Truth by perverting the Scriptures.

I can appreciate this point even as I would say the Orthodox has many "Mysteries" which are not meant to be understood. They clearly are right here despite that.

As we read today in our Epistle from 2 Thess 2, holding fast to both the Holy Scriptures and Holy Tradition are necessary to keep us from being swept away by "the lie" by which the spirit of antichrist, the "mystery of iniquity", is deceiving the multitudes in this age of apostasy.

There is an argument that the holy tradition is the teachings and practice of the Orthodox church and perhaps they are closer to the truth on some things but we can also see some things which are stretching the Scriptures which of course they could say that people misunderstood it.

Iconography is one particularly weak point of the Catholic/Orthodoxy practice as well as praying to saints. You certainly can produce some Scriptures to argue in favor of it but you can also produce very strong arguments from Scripture and the early church writings against Iconography. They counter this by saying that the early church was talking about idols and not the holy relics or images created. The primary problem is then a circular argument that the writers of later authors arguments for Iconography don't make a strong argument against idols while supporting icons but rather attack Iconoclasts for their work.
If the foundation of both Iconography and praying to saints are removed, we come to the next primary issues, which is church authority and perhaps bigger still, the broader failure to keep a pure church.
If one accepts their authority to impose on belief, then the foundational truth is subject to the whim of men who have blessed armies with proclamations of holiness and perfection leading to Heaven, despite terrible sins committed within her ranks.

To end it all, the authority of the church is the primary point of contention, and one is faced with a question. Who is Moses and who is Korah?

5 And he spake unto Korah and unto all his company, saying, Even to morrow the LORD will shew who are his, and who is holy; and will cause him to come near unto him: even him whom he hath chosen will he cause to come near unto him.

26 And he spake unto the congregation, saying, Depart, I pray you, from the tents of these wicked men, and touch nothing of theirs, lest ye be consumed in all their sins.

[MaxPC]

Just to say, this is a wonderful topic and discussion.

[Sudsy]

One of my initial thoughts, quickly reading the link, is what is believed is necessary for salvation.

I have a question regarding reference to the Holy Spirit verse in Jude3 - Is it not possible that when scripture says the Holy Spirit will guide us into ALL truth that it is saying real truth will only be revealed via the Holy Spirit and this may not mean that the Holy Spirit will guide us into the truths we may want to know but it is not needful to know at this point ?

Paul writes in 1 Cor 13 that we now see through a 'glass darkly' and that currently we now only know 'in part'. Regarding salvation, Paul also speaks of the truth we need to know of 'first importance' as described in 1 Cor 15 and this truth Paul says is the Gospel that saves us.

For the thief on the cross it was a simple statement of truth about Jesus that Jesus promised him Paradise.

Jesus said many would be very surprised at judgment day as to what is the heart belief of truth that saves us. Christianity has split over all kinds of understandings of scripture and as many have, their understanding (revelation ?) is required far beyond what Paul states as the Gospel that saves us.

It would seem the Orthodox, as many others have, put all kinds of beliefs necessary for salvation. One I'm most familiar with is a UPC, United Pentecostal, belief that follows what Peter said when 3,000 were saved. Peter (as understood Holy Spirit led) said to be saved you must repent, be baptised by immersion in Jesus name and speak in tongues. They also view the trinity understanding of God to be wrong. Most of us then, are not saved according to scripture. And it would seem to me the more 'conservative' a group becomes, the more the qualifications for salvation are required.

Not that this is a salvation issue for most, but will any professing Christian woman who cuts their hair, not be saved because of it and/or even used by God in His purposes ? UPC women, as well as other considered 'conservative' believers, don't cut their hair but will their other beliefs disqualify them for salvation ? Paul doesn't appear to say so directly but some might interpret his writings as such.

Personally I believe man has created thousands of versions of Christianity that vary and yet all would say they are Holy Spirit guided and most all, if not all, can find some kind of scriptual support. I don't believe a 'Holy Tradition' exists that is 100% Spirit guided. We all currently only know 'in part' whether our ego likes to admit it or not.

[Valerie]

It sounds nice, it even looks nice to be able to lay down all the debating, the arguing, the misunderstanding and just listen to a man say that the truth has been preserved through the church.

If we begin to say that certain things were vague and not understood from the beginning, then we open the door to the strong delusion, when "science falsely so-called" shall be used to subvert the Truth by perverting the Scriptures.

I can appreciate this point even as I would say the Orthodox has many "Mysteries" which are not meant to be understood. They clearly are right here despite that.

As we read today in our Epistle from 2 Thess 2, holding fast to both the Holy Scriptures and Holy Tradition are necessary to keep us from being swept away by "the lie" by which the spirit of antichrist, the "mystery of iniquity", is deceiving the multitudes in this age of apostasy.

There is an argument that the holy tradition is the teachings and practice of the Orthodox church and perhaps they are closer to the truth on some things but we can also see some things which are stretching the Scriptures which of course they could say that people misunderstood it.

Iconography is one particularly weak point of the Catholic/Orthodoxy practice as well as praying to saints. You certainly can produce some Scriptures to argue in favor of it but you can also produce very strong arguments from Scripture and the early church writings against Iconography. They counter this by saying that the early church was talking about idols and not the holy relics or images created. The primary problem is then a circular argument that the writers of later authors arguments for Iconography don't make a strong argument against idols while supporting icons but rather attack Iconoclasts for their work.
If the foundation of both Iconography and praying to saints are removed, we come to the next primary issues, which is church authority and perhaps bigger still, the broader failure to keep a pure church.
If one accepts their authority to impose on belief, then the foundational truth is subject to the whim of men who have blessed armies with proclamations of holiness and perfection leading to Heaven, despite terrible sins committed within her ranks.

To end it all, the authority of the church is the primary point of contention, and one is faced with a question. Who is Moses and who is Korah?

5 And he spake unto Korah and unto all his company, saying, Even to morrow the LORD will shew who are his, and who is holy; and will cause him to come near unto him: even him whom he hath chosen will he cause to come near unto him.

26 And he spake unto the congregation, saying, Depart, I pray you, from the tents of these wicked men, and touch nothing of theirs, lest ye be consumed in all their sins.

I wrestle the same way you do. You raise good points. I tend to conclude that the problem is more with me and understanding, then with the ancient Church. Christ said He would build His Church, and the gates of hell would not prevail against it. If the church fell so fast it would make his statement very weak. Since we know the following away and apostasy happens at the end and not the beginning I tend to believe that even if the church at large was done perfect as in Israel was not perfect it is still His church. I understand iconography and it's purpose and don't see it as idols at all, I never really did. I do understand the difference between worship and generation although I think anabaptist see them as one of the same. I think most Protestants outside of anabaptists have their own icons and what would appear to be idolatry, traditions, things that are questionable and can't be supported by scripture but they get a pass on those things it seems. I also endorse tradition according to second Thessalonians 2:15 that not everything was written down that the church was primarily oral for quite some time reading the Old testament and Epistles until the church finally canonized the Bible. If we can't trust the church that canonized the Bible then what? They could have interjected all kinds of things in the scriptures to support what they do without question.

[Valerie]

One of my initial thoughts, quickly reading the link, is what is believed is necessary for salvation.

I have a question regarding reference to the Holy Spirit verse in Jude3 - Is it not possible that when scripture says the Holy Spirit will guide us into ALL truth that it is saying real truth will only be revealed via the Holy Spirit and this may not mean that the Holy Spirit will guide us into the truths we may want to know but it is not needful to know at this point ?

Paul writes in 1 Cor 13 that we now see through a 'glass darkly' and that currently we now only know 'in part'. Regarding salvation, Paul also speaks of the truth we need to know of 'first importance' as described in 1 Cor 15 and this truth Paul says is the Gospel that saves us.

For the thief on the cross it was a simple statement of truth about Jesus that Jesus promised him Paradise.

Jesus said many would be very surprised at judgment day as to what is the heart belief of truth that saves us. Christianity has split over all kinds of understandings of scripture and as many have, their understanding (revelation ?) is required far beyond what Paul states as the Gospel that saves us.

It would seem the Orthodox, as many others have, put all kinds of beliefs necessary for salvation. One I'm most familiar with is a UPC, United Pentecostal, belief that follows what Peter said when 3,000 were saved. Peter (as understood Holy Spirit led) said to be saved you must repent, be baptised by immersion in Jesus name and speak in tongues. They also view the trinity understanding of God to be wrong. Most of us then, are not saved according to scripture. And it would seem to me the more 'conservative' a group becomes, the more the qualifications for salvation are required.

Not that this is a salvation issue for most, but will any professing Christian woman who cuts their hair, not be saved because of it and/or even used by God in His purposes ? UPC women, as well as other considered 'conservative' believers, don't cut their hair but will their other beliefs disqualify them for salvation ? Paul doesn't appear to say so directly but some might interpret his writings as such.

Personally I believe man has created thousands of versions of Christianity that vary and yet all would say they are Holy Spirit guided and most all, if not all, can find some kind of scriptual support. I don't believe a 'Holy Tradition' exists that is 100% Spirit guided. We all currently only know 'in part' whether our ego likes to admit it or not.

The Church was not meant to be SO sected into thousands of factions though. That in itself has led to confusion & atheism. It was not supposed to be like the New Age mindset, my truth and your truth. The Church was to contend for the faith once delivered to the saints and heresy was listed as one of the sins of the flesh in Galatians 5, along with . murder, adultery, etc.

[RZehr]

Valerie, do you belong to and are you committed to any specific church at this time?

[RZehr]

If we can't trust the church that canonized the Bible then what? They could have interjected all kinds of things in the scriptures to support what they do without question.

It would help their credibility, if they taught and lived what they apparently canonized.

[Valerie]

If we can't trust the church that canonized the Bible then what? They could have interjected all kinds of things in the scriptures to support what they do without question.

It would help their credibility, if they taught and lived what they apparently canonized.

That is painting a broad brush. It's a worldwide Church and we can't possibly know the percentage of those who live what they believe and who are lukewarm.

It has just given me a great deal of peace to turn to them for interpretation of scriptures is outside of them there is so much wrangling over interpretations.

[Sudsy]

I think it is quite possible that when Paul told the Corinthian church to follow Christ rather than certain teachers (Apollos, Peter, himself) that believers were already into splitting up over interpretations on what was being taught, quarreling. In 1 Cor 3, Paul describes this as being 'worldy'. He writes about this conflict between believers as those remaining as spiritual babies.

The way I see it is that even though a true believer has the Holy Spirit for guidance, no true believer is fully guided by the Holy Spirit to fully know all there is to know that is Truth. We do know enough Truth to be saved from our sins and this is a 'blessed assurance' the Holy Spirit gives to those who belong to Jesus.

As mentioned previously, Paul writes we all see through a glass darkly and all of us only know in part. There is no 'church' that knows all the truths about God and never will be until we see Him face to face. However, despite the varied interpretations Chrsiatians have, God is building His Church and not our messed up views nor 'the gates of hell' will prevent God from building His Church. And none of us knows exactly all that God will tolerate in some of our clouded understandings but we do know what Paul calls what is of 'first importance' as the Gospel that saves us and we also know certain scriptures that say who will not enter the Kingdom.

I don't believe that a church/denomination will ever exist here on this earth which is 'without spot or wrinkle' in their understandings and practises but Jesus has made all true believers as such as we are regarded this way through Jesus work at Calvary. I believe, 1 Cor 3 indicates, our rewards will be determined on how we have co-operated with Jesus in building our faith that He has begun in us. Imo, too many judgments are made by us Christians on other Christians when we should be focusing on ourselves and our works.

Paul tried to get the Corinthians to 'live by the Spirit' and although this too has been interpreted to mean various things, a Spirit lead Christian will reflect the fruit of the Spirit as described in Scipture, Gal 5:22-23. If any of these descriptions of that fruit are weak or missing, we are not living controlled by the Spirit. Paul told the Corinthians their quarrelling with one another was a sign of them lacking Spirit control.

I certainly am not suggesting that I am Spirit controlled and give way to the flesh too often but I do believe this is where we need to put our focus. Your thoughts, anyone ?