Singing Groups

Messages, Lectures and talks that relate, or connect to Anabapatist theology.
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ohio jones
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Re: Singing Groups

Post by ohio jones »

joshuabgood wrote:Just to clarify - I actually do value complex music - even when it is repetitive. I like advanced choral music. I sing it on occasion and was kind of raised on it from little up. What I don't care for is the "elitism" that turns up when folks refer to this kind of music as "good music" with the insinuation that other genres aren't. Also - I think more complex art has to be taught and studied to be enjoyed. It is worth studying in my view, but choirs should consider their audience firstly when preparing songs.

Lastly, I don't like confusing a concert with the assembling of the saints. Let a religiously themed art show, be what it is, a religiously themed art show. It may encourage and inspire some who appreciate that type of art. Don't call it church though...

Josh
I agree with this. I also think it's possible to refer to "good music" without implying anything about other genres.
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Josh
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Re: Singing Groups

Post by Josh »

I often wish during some chorale performances that the audience (especially myself!) could just all join in, and we just have a hymn sing for an hour or two.
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lesterb
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Re: Singing Groups

Post by lesterb »

cmbl wrote:
lesterb wrote: Ahh, now here is a man after my own heart... :up:
I couldn't have put it better. I really don't see how some of these repetitive classical songs bring glory to anyone other than the director. They don't sound nice, they don't really have a message. Their only redeeming factor is that they are difficult, and so the singers have to be good, right?

Hey, what happened to the smilie that collapses?
Could you give a few examples of these songs?
Well, the Hallelujah Chorus, maybe, though I don't mind that one as much. When I went to Messiah Bible School, we use a thin green song book called something like Gospel Choir. It had a lot of complex music that wasn't too bad and had meaningful lyrics, so I'm acquainted with pieces that have a moderate difficulty. But I never enjoyed the songs as much. I like a song like Worthy the Lamb sung with proper interpretation.

I thought after I posted this, that I over reacted somewhat. But it's an issue we face in our church. We're struggling with the elitism that so often goes with this kind of music in our church. They talk a lot about glorifying God, but it seems to me that the group tends to get the most of the glory. Thankfully our chorus is drifting back a bit more into normal Anabaptist music.

I was a director when I was young. I loved music. But when I see all the Mennonite groups that are populating YouTube these days, it makes me feel a little sick. I've been thinking a bit about worship lately, and what it really is, and I think we're losing the distinction between worship and entertainment. It will do some damage in the long run to our churches, and probably has already. One of the glories of heaven will be the worship, which will include lots of singing. But somehow I doubt that there will be special singing groups to entertain the rest of us.

I know that makes me a bit of an odd man out. When I was young, I longed to get out from under the shackles of people who probably felt like I do now. :-| Some of them would be pretty surprised.
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appleman2006
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Re: Singing Groups

Post by appleman2006 »

Sometime in the not to distant future when I have a real keyboard on front of me again I hope to give my perspective. You may not all like it but I think it is one our communities need to hear. IMO of course.
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ohio jones
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Re: Singing Groups

Post by ohio jones »

appleman2006 wrote:Sometime in the not to distant future when I have a real keyboard on front of me again I hope to give my perspective. You may not all like it but I think it is one our communities need to hear. IMO of course.
Please post a video if you can; we do need to hear you tickle the ivories. I had no idea that was one of your talents!
Or did you mean a QWERTY keyboard?
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I grew up around Indiana, You grew up around Galilee; And if I ever really do grow up, I wanna grow up to be just like You -- Rich Mullins

I am a Christian and my name is Pilgram; I'm on a journey, but I'm not alone -- NewSong, slightly edited
appleman2006
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Re: Singing Groups

Post by appleman2006 »

:) one of the points that I hope to make is that perhaps you need to hear my viewpoint from one that cannot "tickle the ivories".
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appleman2006
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Re: Singing Groups

Post by appleman2006 »

I apologize for taking so long to get this post out. Sometimes life gets in the way of our best intentions. I also apologize for it's length. :oops:
First a couple of disclaimers if I may.
I want to make it clear that the following points are my opinions and that I am open to correction and being proven wrong. All I ask is that you at least give these ideas some consideration. I also want to make it clear that I respect those in this thread that have given dissenting views and in no way want this to be considered a personal attack on them at all.
I also want it to be known that while I enjoy music very much and while I can harmonize and sing reasonably well I would never be talented enough to sing in some of the better choirs around where one might need to audition to be a member. At least not without a lot of training and I am pragmatic enough to know that my best singing days are in the past simply due to my age. Perhaps that fact however makes me the right person to say some of the following things that I feel need to be said. I also want it to be clear that if I refer to “good music”, unless otherwise stated I am referring to the quality of said music and not necessarily the genre.
First of all let me start by asking a few questions. How many of you would tell a local electrician that he should not be the very best electrician that he can be? Or what about a woodworker? Would you encourage a cabinetmaker, for example, not to practise his craft too much so as to be sure he does not get too good at what he does? Should a farmer simply practise his vocation half-heartedly and not continue to increase his knowledge of growing things? Would you tell your children not to get past frying eggs and making toast for fear that they might become proud of their food making abilities?
The fact is that all the above mentioned trades and talents are ones that we admire within our culture when someone excels in them. We do not worry that they will think of themselves as some sort of an elitist just because they can bake a much better pie than most of the rest of us.
Then why is it that when it comes to the arts we actually almost take the attitude that Ecc. 9:10 does not apply. We worry that someone that excels in the arts will somehow automatically become proud and think they are so much better than anyone else.
Now I will grant you that that possibility does exist but I think it is just as likely to be a possibility in any of the other endeavors I mentioned above. I would venture to say that the charge of elitism in others is often just as likely to be a sign of envy in the person making the charge as it is an actual case of elitism.
I can honestly say that while I have many close acquaintances that can sing far better than I can I have never been made to feel like I am inferior to them. Not even close. I am in awe of their God given talents and I am extremely pleased when I get to be in an audience where they are practicing their gifts.
I really do believe that for years in our conservative Mennonite groups we have largely overlooked the needs of the artistic among us. I am not speaking from personal experience here but I have observed the hurts and struggles of those in our midst that simply have not felt that they really have found a way to express themselves with the gifts God has given them. They see their friends excel in some of the more traditional trades and activities but wonder why when they do well at the things they enjoy they are simply considered to be showing off at worst and at best just wasting their time and/or money doing things of little value to anyone. And God forbid if they actually were good enough at their craft that they would even be able to use their talents to help feed themselves. The horror!
Can you not begin to see the double standard that we show at times? I happen to believe that this double standard has been more of a stumbling block for many in our midst than we might ever be aware.
I have actually been very encouraged by some progress that I have seen in our circles in the past few decades. I can count upwards of close to a dozen young men as well as a few women that have become extremely good and well trained in the music profession and I think they are having a very positive effect on our churches. I can say beyond a doubt that the quality of our music in our services has increased in a large way at least partly due to their work.
I recognize that worship to God comes from the heart and I accept that God is much more concerned about what is coming out of that heart than he is on the quality of the music. However I for one find poor quality music to be very distracting to the message of the songs. On the other hand when music is sung properly both in harmony and in expression the message becomes much more real to me. Adding to that at least in the congregations I was a part of new songs were rarely sung. Today it is not unusual in our congregation for a song leader to pick a song that almost no one has ever sung before perhaps because the message compliments the SS lesson or the message very well and within a verse or two you would never notice that it is new. That is a tremendous blessing and only possible because of the emphasis placed on the value of excelling in music.
No one expects that all of us will at some time be part of a choir like the West Coast Mennonite choir or a gospel group like the Cathedrals if that is more to your liking but does that mean that those that have been given special gifts and have really applied themselves should not have that opportunity.
Some of you know that a well-known conservative Mennonite choir has recently formed a board and that I have been asked to sit on it. Image my surprise when I was asked to be their first board chair even though I am by far the least musically talented member of the board and am only one of two board members that have never been a member of the choir. To me it was further proof that there is absolutely no sense of elitism among this group.
I would like to address Josh Good’s concern as it relates to “good music” but I will have to perhaps do it in a later post as this one is already far too long. He makes some good points but I would argue that part of the reason groups within the church have tried to stick to worship type programs rather than a more tradition concert type performance is precisely because of some of the what I feel are very wrong attitudes in our circles towards the arts and that they see baby steps as better than no steps at all.
Personally I believe that plain outright concerts that simply celebrate the God given music and talents of the participants have their place and I hope to see more of them. I would also love to see more conservative Mennonites put on a traditional art display or show either with paintings sculpture or otherwise.
If you are still reading this I thank you. Take some time to think about it and I welcome your feedback.
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mike
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Re: Singing Groups

Post by mike »

Appleman, quite well said.
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cmbl
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Re: Singing Groups

Post by cmbl »

appleman2006 wrote: First of all let me start by asking a few questions. How many of you would tell a local electrician that he should not be the very best electrician that he can be? Or what about a woodworker? Would you encourage a cabinetmaker, for example, not to practise his craft too much so as to be sure he does not get too good at what he does?
If being the very best electrician, woodworker or cabinetmaker requires working Saturdays and Sundays - and I presume it does - sure I would. Granted I myself have spent too many Saturdays and Sundays being the best college student I could be, so there's three fingers pointing back at me.

While I'm not on board with your viewpoint Appleman, I can appreciate it and your willingness to share it.
I appreciate the technical quality of singing I have experienced in moderate and intermediate conservative churches, as well as the fact that many of the songs have sound teaching rather than fluff.
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francis
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Re: Singing Groups

Post by francis »

Heirbyadoption wrote:
francis wrote:
Heirbyadoption wrote: Thank you. I have been a Harper for years. I still miss my little group out in Berkeley CA - we had the perfect little chapel to meet in, and some extra-strong leaders. Unfortunately, the closest ones around my home in southern PA are 2-3 hours away(which I don't mind, it's just hard to swing with kids, work, church, and a non-Harping wife). My question revolves primarily around accappella singing groups such as the Mennos abound in, though.
I used to sing with that group in berkeley too! They're really great. I sympathize with the distance though.
Small world. Are we acquainted? I moved away from CA in 2010. I was the German Baptist guy who came over from Modesto on Monday evenings.
I didn't start singing in California until recently so I don't think we would have crossed paths, but I'm always glad to connect with other Harpers, even if only through the internet!
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