Singing Groups

Messages, Lectures and talks that relate, or connect to Anabapatist theology.
francis
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Re: Singing Groups

Post by francis »

Heirbyadoption wrote:
francis wrote:Not menno-specific, but there's been a revival in Sacred Harp/shape note singing in the past 60 or so years, and a lot of cities have singing groups. If you look up "sacred harp [city]" and live in a decent-sized city there might be something nearby. A lot of it is primitive baptist-based but the calvinist theology isn't in a majority of the songs. I know a few conservative mennonites that really like that tradition.

Here's a link to a youtube playlist of sacred harp music. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nl6UpzX ... B42E6EC612

Feel free to contact me if you have any questions, although I understand this might not be what you're looking for.
Thank you. I have been a Harper for years. I still miss my little group out in Berkeley CA - we had the perfect little chapel to meet in, and some extra-strong leaders. Unfortunately, the closest ones around my home in southern PA are 2-3 hours away(which I don't mind, it's just hard to swing with kids, work, church, and a non-Harping wife). My question revolves primarily around accappella singing groups such as the Mennos abound in, though.
I used to sing with that group in berkeley too! They're really great. I sympathize with the distance though.
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appleman2006
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Re: Singing Groups

Post by appleman2006 »

joshuabgood wrote:
Ernie wrote:
Josh wrote:The Plain News sort of was going to do this if someone volunteered to collect the info. Ask Ernie if he still wants to do this.
Since special singing groups are not something that is commonly believed and practiced among plain people, and since many groups tend to blow through more resources than what we are comfortable with, and since some music is only accessible and appreciated by a minority, and since there are other things that we think should be getting equal or higher priority in our communities, we've decided not to make this a feature of Plain News.

I have some principles that I could share that would show what I am comfortable with regarding singing groups, but won't take time for that now.
Personally, I'd like to hear them. I do have mixed feelings about "special music" though I have done quite a bit of it myself...
I would also be interested in hearing them although I may have some counter arguments as to why I believe an increased empahsis in good music is a very positive thing among our plain communities. Let me know if you want to hear them.
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RZehr
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Re: Singing Groups

Post by RZehr »

appleman2006 wrote:
joshuabgood wrote:
Ernie wrote:
Since special singing groups are not something that is commonly believed and practiced among plain people, and since many groups tend to blow through more resources than what we are comfortable with, and since some music is only accessible and appreciated by a minority, and since there are other things that we think should be getting equal or higher priority in our communities, we've decided not to make this a feature of Plain News.

I have some principles that I could share that would show what I am comfortable with regarding singing groups, but won't take time for that now.
Personally, I'd like to hear them. I do have mixed feelings about "special music" though I have done quite a bit of it myself...
I would also be interested in hearing them although I may have some counter arguments as to why I believe an increased empahsis in good music is a very positive thing among our plain communities. Let me know if you want to hear them.
I'm very interested in hearing what appleman and Ernie have to say. I'm also curious what the reasons were that plain people began to travel and sing to audiences. How far back can this be traced?
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mike
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Re: Singing Groups

Post by mike »

Chalk me up as another interested party in a discussion of the pros and cons of the singing groups (traveling choirs, specifically) that have become more and more popular among us CAs. I haven't participated in too many of these but have attended quite a few concerts.

Here are a few off the top of my head:

Pros
Raise level of musical ability of participants
Focus musical ability on mostly spiritual content
Opportunity for good social interaction
Provide an attractive medium for the Christian message

Cons
Expensive
Potential for pride and elitism
Creation of talented but exclusive groups as opposed to lifting musical ability across whole congregations
Confusion of worship and performance
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Ernie
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Re: Singing Groups

Post by Ernie »

I don't have time to write and article on this right now so all you are going to get is random thoughts along the way.

I like Mike's "cons". I see better ways to accomplish the "pros".

1. You don't have to have choir programs to get good singing. I grew up in an Old Order/ Ultra Conservative setting that had a good program for teaching music from grade 1-10.
2. There is something wrong when a family or culture will faithfully spend many hours to participate in or travel to hear a choir program, but tends to minimize or neglect things like: meetings put on by the local church, preaching the Gospel to the poor, befriending the foreigner and stranger, visiting the fatherless and widows, etc. It is almost certain that such a culture is in transition and will only last a generation.
3. The best art is that which is accessible/inspirational to a wide range of people. Winnie-the-Pooh would be an example of this. Most choir programs I've heard tend to target a narrow audience. Those whose programs target a narrow audience tend to minimize this problem by quoting people who appreciated the program which does not really address the problem at all but it sounds good.
4. Jesus blessed the woman who lavished him luxuriously with ointment so we can't say that someone who lavishes someone else with their best gifts are bad people. If a gifted singer(s) used his gift to bless the rank and file and spent the rest of his life doing the kinds of things Jesus did with his life, I would have no problem with it. I just can't get on board with people who mostly hang out with their peers, and salve their conscience by thinking they are "ministering" to others and spreading the Gospel with their choir programs. The occasional good story can be told that seems to justify it, but then ultra-conservatives can tell a few good stories too about how someone came to believe that their particular package of ultra-conservative church standards is the perfect solution to the world's problems.
A few good stories do not justify anything.
5. If performing arts coupled with a Christian theme is a good thing, than it would be justifiable for a painter to travel in his motor coach displaying his paintings in our churches. And if that is ok, then a drama team could do the same.
6. I like when a group of local people get together and do a local singing program. I think that is justifiable. Driving some distance to give a singing program to the unchurched may also be justifiable as long as there is follow up conversations with the audience in the succeeding days and weeks. Anything more than that doesn't seem to fit the tenor of New Testament teaching, IMO.

For the record, I've taught music in Day Schools and at Calvary Bible Schools, directed choirs, taught music composition, and written music for songs. I love music.
I just haven't gotten on board with how moderate conservative Anabaptists have gone overboard in this.
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mike
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Re: Singing Groups

Post by mike »

Ernie wrote:3. The best art is that which is accessible/inspirational to a wide range of people. Winnie-the-Pooh would be an example of this. Most choir programs I've heard tend to target a narrow audience.
Possibly then Mary Had a Little Lamb is the best sort of musical art in your view; but the reality is that many people are bored to tears with art at this level. We grow up; and I suspect that the musical abilities of some congregations and communities leave many talented singers bored or unfulfilled. Can one blame these singers for meeting with like-talented friends once every year or two to enjoy art at their skill level or expand their abilities in ways that are impossible in their normal context?

As to the expense, of course there are multiple ways to waste ones money - by making one's house larger, buying a nicer car than one would have to have, or eating out more often. I would guess that participating in a choir tour is something that many members budget funds for all year long in order to afford the experience.

This is mostly for the sake of argument; I would have some arguments against the other side as well.
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joshuabgood
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Re: Singing Groups

Post by joshuabgood »

1. You don't have to have choir programs to get good singing. I grew up in an Old Order/ Ultra Conservative setting that had a good program for teaching music from grade 1-10.
2. There is something wrong when a family or culture will faithfully spend many hours to participate in or travel to hear a choir program, but tends to minimize or neglect things like: meetings put on by the local church, preaching the Gospel to the poor, befriending the foreigner and stranger, visiting the fatherless and widows, etc. It is almost certain that such a culture is in transition and will only last a generation.
3. The best art is that which is accessible/inspirational to a wide range of people. Winnie-the-Pooh would be an example of this. Most choir programs I've heard tend to target a narrow audience. Those whose programs target a narrow audience tend to minimize this problem by quoting people who appreciated the program which does not really address the problem at all but it sounds good.
4. Jesus blessed the woman who lavished him luxuriously with ointment so we can't say that someone who lavishes someone else with their best gifts are bad people. If a gifted singer(s) used his gift to bless the rank and file and spent the rest of his life doing the kinds of things Jesus did with his life, I would have no problem with it. I just can't get on board with people who mostly hang out with their peers, and salve their conscience by thinking they are "ministering" to others and spreading the Gospel with their choir programs. The occasional good story can be told that seems to justify it, but then ultra-conservatives can tell a few good stories too about how someone came to believe that their particular package of ultra-conservative church standards is the perfect solution to the world's problems.
A few good stories do not justify anything.
5. If performing arts coupled with a Christian theme is a good thing, than it would be justifiable for a painter to travel in his motor coach displaying his paintings in our churches. And if that is ok, then a drama team could do the same.
6. I like when a group of local people get together and do a local singing program. I think that is justifiable. Driving some distance to give a singing program to the unchurched may also be justifiable as long as there is follow up conversations with the audience in the succeeding days and weeks. Anything more than that doesn't seem to fit the tenor of New Testament teaching, IMO.
Thanks for these thoughts Ernie - Mostly I would be sympathetic to them.

#1 - Definitely don't have to have a choir program for good singing. (It may provide an avenue for more regular singing though.)

#2 - I agree with your point here also, if it is the case. Though I know quite a few folks that do sing in choirs and that do make it to local events.

#3 - This one I probably wouldn't quite be in the same place. Art, like many other things, needs to be studied to be fully appreciated. It is true, if one is unfamiliar with art, then Mona Lisa becomes just and odd looking woman with a half smile. And the rather corny nostalgic landscape's, are often the most easily admired artistic works by the masses. However, I wouldn't quite be ready to give up on the "finer things." Having said that, if the purpose is leading a mostly "uneducated in the arts" congregation in worship, then certainly the more simpler songs would likely be more inspiring. (And personally I don't care for singing songs in Mennonite Churches that most of the attendees "don't get." 1 or 2 songs is ok (if they are broken down and explained/made accessible)...but not the whole program. A choir should keep the audience in mind to whom they are singing.

#4 - I do think your comparison here is appropriate. The woman, in an act of worship "wasted" something very valuable. In a similar way I think in some cases it is ok to "waste" value on worship/art. Say perhaps a nice grand piano to aid in worship...or an orchestra of expensive instruments...to accompany a choir or congregation.

#5 - Your comparison with a Christian themed art...is spot on. I would be in favor of art shows in our circles. The problem is music is pretty much the only artistically acceptable outlet for Moderate Conservatives. They can't go to university and study any other art form and "get away with it." For this reason I am at least thankful we had that. Another confusing thing here is mistaking an artistic performance for the "assembly of the saints" which we often do. It would be better in my view, to call it what it is, an artistic concert for whom God is getting the glory hopefully. Don't confuse it with the gathering of the saints.

#6 - I am with you - though I probably would allow that "using" one's gifts for the glory of God, could be beneficial, but not a church service. That is, if one has a strong voice, let them lift it up, being an art form though it be, as an act of worship, though not confusing said program with the assembly of the saints.

My biggest concern with choirs and the current expression of music in moderate settings, is making sure that elitism and pride don't accompany it - which I fear happens to often. When I hear folks reference their type of music as "good music" or "good singing" it bothers me. Music in my view isn't "good" and that word, which also conveys a moral and "worth" connotation, isn't ideal to use for any musical genre. We should label genre's as "not good" or people as "not good" singers. Other musical genres that are just as meaningful (in my view) are too often discouraged, derided, or even worse, made fun of. And people that would like to sing and get better at singing, aren't "invited" or permitted to sing with certain groups...not sure that I am saying that anybody should be able to sing with any group...but I do feel bad for folks who may feel left out.
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Josh
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Re: Singing Groups

Post by Josh »

I find it frustrating that I have gone on and am signed up for more trips to go on singing trips to L.A. and NYC. Sometimes there isn't even any plain church established.

Meanwhile I can't find anyone (other than a handful of NMB friends) to go with me to sing in Akron or Cleveland. There isn't a huge amount of interest in local street witnessing it seems.

Something just feels off about this. But the trips are very fun and I make good friends there, so I keep going. I wish it were more local. When I make a connection with someone on the street, it's too far to really follow up.

I don't know how it is in Holdeman circles yet. Their approach to these things is a bit different. We do have much more local singing and a lot less travelling around to sing in other churches. When a church's local people do put on a singing programme then people visit from other churches, but only if they don't have their own services to go to that night.
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ohio jones
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Re: Singing Groups

Post by ohio jones »

From the program of the singing group I heard tonight:
The primary purpose of the Choir is to glorify God. We seek to bless people and minister to audiences for Jesus Christ through uplifting singing. We also seek to preserve and to promote good singing in the church of today.
I note that 1/3 of their itinerary is non-church settings (healthcare facilities, Teen Challenge) and 2/3 of the offering goes to CAM. I take this as an indication that they are not overcome with elitism and pride, and their actions appeared to be consistent with that. Although it certainly was "good singing" there was no labeling of anything else as "not good" as our Good brother mentions above. It was a blessing.
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ohio jones
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Re: Singing Groups

Post by ohio jones »

joshuabgood wrote:
5. If performing arts coupled with a Christian theme is a good thing, than it would be justifiable for a painter to travel in his motor coach displaying his paintings in our churches. And if that is ok, then a drama team could do the same.
#5 - Your comparison with a Christian themed art...is spot on. I would be in favor of art shows in our circles. The problem is music is pretty much the only artistically acceptable outlet for Moderate Conservatives. They can't go to university and study any other art form and "get away with it." For this reason I am at least thankful we had that.
I seem to detect a lack of appreciation for drama. But that may be a can of worms for another thread.
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I grew up around Indiana, You grew up around Galilee; And if I ever really do grow up, I wanna grow up to be just like You -- Rich Mullins

I am a Christian and my name is Pilgram; I'm on a journey, but I'm not alone -- NewSong, slightly edited
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