Singing Groups

Messages, Lectures and talks that relate, or connect to Anabapatist theology.
appleman2006
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Re: Singing Groups

Post by appleman2006 »

cmbl wrote:
appleman2006 wrote: First of all let me start by asking a few questions. How many of you would tell a local electrician that he should not be the very best electrician that he can be? Or what about a woodworker? Would you encourage a cabinetmaker, for example, not to practise his craft too much so as to be sure he does not get too good at what he does?
If being the very best electrician, woodworker or cabinetmaker requires working Saturdays and Sundays - and I presume it does - sure I would. Granted I myself have spent too many Saturdays and Sundays being the best college student I could be, so there's three fingers pointing back at me.

While I'm not on board with your viewpoint Appleman, I can appreciate it and your willingness to share it.
I appreciate the technical quality of singing I have experienced in moderate and intermediate conservative churches, as well as the fact that many of the songs have sound teaching rather than fluff.
I appreciate your graciousness.
I am not sure that I understand where you are coming from with the Saturday or Sunday comment.
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Wade
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Re: Singing Groups

Post by Wade »

appleman2006 wrote:
cmbl wrote:
appleman2006 wrote: First of all let me start by asking a few questions. How many of you would tell a local electrician that he should not be the very best electrician that he can be? Or what about a woodworker? Would you encourage a cabinetmaker, for example, not to practise his craft too much so as to be sure he does not get too good at what he does?
If being the very best electrician, woodworker or cabinetmaker requires working Saturdays and Sundays - and I presume it does - sure I would. Granted I myself have spent too many Saturdays and Sundays being the best college student I could be, so there's three fingers pointing back at me.

While I'm not on board with your viewpoint Appleman, I can appreciate it and your willingness to share it.
I appreciate the technical quality of singing I have experienced in moderate and intermediate conservative churches, as well as the fact that many of the songs have sound teaching rather than fluff.
I appreciate your graciousness.
I am not sure that I understand where you are coming from with the Saturday or Sunday comment.
Being an electrician with "b"level FSR who has completed a number of in-house industrial upgrades as managing and doing most of the design and work, even in the muilty millions of value. I would say my career has substantially decreased in desire and ability and opportunities to be the best electrician I can be since I refused to keep working Sundays. Sundays are when the most work and most important work is required to be done to be the best electrician one can be... Maybe this can help with perspective?

I love when people sing because they love God whether they are good or not. When people are trying to sing together it seems to blend to where it sounds good to me, where if they were singing alone it wouldn't. It's an amazing example of the church coming together, and a reason I very much like acapella.
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appleman2006
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Re: Singing Groups

Post by appleman2006 »

I guess I am still not sure what working on Sundays or Saturdays has to do with the topic at hand. If the question is should you do something you are good at or that you get paid to do or you enjoy doing on Sunday I would say that is another discussion entirely.

As to your love for music without instrumentation I agree with you that it can be very beautiful and it is high on my list of my preferred music as well. But like any music it is far more enjoyable when it is sung with a reasonable degree of talent at least to myself that is the case.
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Josh
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Re: Singing Groups

Post by Josh »

I think cmbl is saying that sometimes, yes, you do tell someone "you can't be the very best at something" if the cost of doing so is pride.

The cost I often see of a singer being the very best singer they can be is that they give in to vanity and pride.
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appleman2006
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Re: Singing Groups

Post by appleman2006 »

Josh wrote:I think cmbl is saying that sometimes, yes, you do tell someone "you can't be the very best at something" if the cost of doing so is pride.

The cost I often see of a singer being the very best singer they can be is that they give in to vanity and pride.
I am certainly not saying that a person should pursue something if it leads him to thinking he is more important than someone else. Certainly all activities in life are capable of becoming idols to us. My point is simply that we should be consistent in this area and recognize that it is just as possible to become proud of our abilities to be a good carpenter, or a good farmer or a computer technician. And yet I never hear it expressed in our circles that one should not try their best to become good at those vocations. In fact I think sometimes those that are not real good at some of those jobs are looked down upon in our circles. Does no one else see how messed up that might appear to someone who has a natural ability in some of the arts? And then to be told that if he gets too good at singing, for example, that he must be proud or at least he is well on the way to being so. Or maybe he should not even attempt to become good or to use his talent because there is a chance he might become proud. Instead he should perhaps become proud of the fact that he would never display his talents for others to see because he is obviously humble. :)

Reminds me of a story that I am sure many of you have heard a variation of.
A man had just acquired a brand new horse and carriage the previous week. On Sunday morning he hitched up the horse to the new buggy, loaded up his family and started off to church. About halfway to church he became convicted of the fact that he really did have one of the nicest horses and buggies in the community. He suddenly turned around and headed back home, hitched up the old nag to the almost worn out buggy he had previously used and after reloading his family he once again set off for church. As he headed out the lane he remarked to his wife, "I really do not think there is another member of our church that would of done what I just did."

Pride manifests itself in many ways. We can even become proud of the fact that we would never waste valuable time and money becoming a better singer.
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Signtist
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Re: Singing Groups

Post by Signtist »

cmbl wrote:If being the very best electrician, woodworker or cabinetmaker requires working Saturdays and Sundays - and I presume it does - sure I would. Granted I myself have spent too many Saturdays and Sundays being the best college student I could be, so there's three fingers pointing back at me.

While I'm not on board with your viewpoint Appleman, I can appreciate it and your willingness to share it.
I appreciate the technical quality of singing I have experienced in moderate and intermediate conservative churches, as well as the fact that many of the songs have sound teaching rather than fluff.
He actually said...
appleman2006 wrote:How many of you would tell a local electrician that he should not be the very best electrician that he can be? Or what about a woodworker? Would you encourage a cabinetmaker, for example, not to practise his craft too much so as to be sure he does not get too good at what he does?
He did not say, "the very best." There is a difference. I understand a little where Appleman is coming from. And I agree with him. Why can we not be humble enough to acknowledge the things we do well? The better I get at my job, the more humbled I am. Does that sound proud now?
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RZehr
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Re: Singing Groups

Post by RZehr »

Is there a difference between singing and craftsmanship? Singing is worship, craftsmanship is not? Is singing like prayer? Would we encourage a crowd to gather to watch a gifted group of people pray? And sell Cd's of them praying? Isn't a lot of songs to God?
Or is it a fair comparison because we are to bring glory to God in all that we do?
Last edited by RZehr on Thu May 25, 2017 6:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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appleman2006
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Re: Singing Groups

Post by appleman2006 »

Those that are really good at something are almost always those that have actually discovered how much they still have to learn in their area of expertise.
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Valerie
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Re: Singing Groups

Post by Valerie »

RZehr wrote:Is there a difference between singing and craftsmanship? Singing is worship, craftsmanship is not? Is singing like prayer? Would we encourage a crowd to gather to watch a gifted group of people pray? And sell Cd's of them praying? Isn't a lot of songs to God?
Or is it a fair comparison because we are to bring glory to God in all that we do?
Yes I would agree with you on this and am mindful of this passage:

Colossians 3:23
And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;

I think when we have that perspective, in doing anything- as to the Lord, we would be doing the best we can, to please Him and bring Him, not ourselves, glory-
After all, we are made in His image and that means that He would deposit gifts and abilities in His creation (us) that would be a good reflection on Him
(at least this is the way I see it)
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Signtist
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Re: Singing Groups

Post by Signtist »

RZehr wrote:Is there a difference between singing and craftsmanship? Singing is worship, craftsmanship is not? Is singing like prayer? Would we encourage a crowd to gather to watch a gifted group of people pray? And sell Cd's of them praying? Isn't a lot of songs to God?
Or is it a fair comparison because we are to bring glory to God in all that we do?
Is all singing by definition worship? And all craftsmanship by definition not an act of worship?
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