Headship Series

[Soloist]

It seems like a stretch to think a headcovering in public is a tool to open the door to evangelizing and if it ever does occur, I would be interested to know how women get into a discussion regarding salvation from someone asking about their unique headcover. It can happen but does it ?

Yes, it happens.

Happens to my wife regularly and she has had several discussions about our faith and what we believe.
I don't get any acclaims from doing good work so to speak as I'm not showing it off. No one in the store knows I'm a Christian unless they talk to me. My work knows and knows my character and I've also had discussions. Random people though are far more likely to talk to my wife then to a random person wearing a t-shirt with "Jesus saves" on it.

[silentreader]

Sudsy

He talks about when women can prophesize and gives some examples outside the local church. I take it because in the local church they are to be silent. Then he suggests the head covering out in public is a way to prophesy as it tells people in the world what God wants them to know about creation and it calls Christians back to covenant faithfulness. He goes on to say the headcovering might cause someone to ask why you wear it and gives an opportunity to witness.

Really ?

Paul actually mentions and/or alludes to God's creation order in 1 Corinthians 11, and it is probably foundational to the "covering" concept.

[Sudsy]

It seems like a stretch to think a headcovering in public is a tool to open the door to evangelizing and if it ever does occur, I would be interested to know how women get into a discussion regarding salvation from someone asking about their unique headcover. It can happen but does it ?

Yes, it happens.

With all that opinion given, I believe there are attention getter manners of dress that the world uses that we need not follow. I wonder also about Christian designed clothes with scripture verses etc on them. Or the cape dress style being long and often flowery and modern with flashy running shoes. This would cause me to ask questions more than wearing a little head covering. If these draw the unsaved into conversation about the Lord, wonderful but they also can be a stumbling block when a believer acts in a carnal way wearing these kind of clothes. However, doing good deeds faithfully in a Christ loving way is pretty hard to ignore. Even if someone calls you a good person because of these, which even some of the unsaved do, you can always point them to Jesus and tell them how He is what drives them to be like He was. Jesus said our lights shine through our good deeds when done in such a way that points people to Christ. He does not say it is through our dress.

The argument seems to be that a Christian ought to try to blend in with non-Christians for fear that his lack of Christ-likeness would be a poor testimony??? Isn't that kind of weird approach? Why not focus on ensuring being Christlike and putting away carnal behavior instead of making sure we are well enough camouflaged that we can be bad without people knowing we claim to be Christians?

I guess I worded this poorly. Regarding blending in, I think the apostle Paul said we should observe how he follows Christ as an example to follow found in 1 Cor 11:1. Then in 1 Cor 9:20-22 Paul says -

To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some.

Yet in appearing this way Paul was not sinning, being 'bad', in how he appeared to be one of them. I believe his main goal was their salvation and he didn't want side issues to get in the way of this.

Jesus was criticized for hanging out with sinners by the Pharisees. He was not concerned about what some were reading into Him doing so because in this involvement He was taking them salvation. He was very much into good deeds. When it comes to how we are to be different than the world, how we shine our lights, Jesus said it is by good deeds. Peter in 1 Peter 2:12 said-

Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us.

Paul wrote to Timothy - 2:9-10

I also want the women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, adorning themselves, not with elaborate hairstyles or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.

So I believe although there is a limit to 'blending in' as we are not given a license to sin to win others, our main identifier that should stand out more than other appearances is our good deeds. We should dress in our culture in a way that does not outshine our good deeds.

When I think about this I think of the Salvation Army. Their founder, General Booth, wanted them to be easily identified in a crowd so that those who need help could quickly find them. No biblical support though for creating a uniform dress. But the effect of this in those days for many had the opposite affect as some people saw them as officers of the law that they feared. Then their uniform took on all kinds of what they gave biblical meanings to within their group. And for some, it still is all about the uniform. But, in general, their good deeds took away the fear others have of them and today they are highly regarded for their good deeds and how they manage donations. The poor and the needy eagerly go to them for help more than any other Christian faith group. As Jesus did, they mingled with sinners in all kinds of places that many Christians wouldn't be seen in. Their main objective, as was Paul's, is the salvation of others.

So, although some Christians today still wear some kind of uniform (i.e. a cape dress, cross hanging on a chain around our neck, T-Shirts with bible verses, suspenders, etc) is it our good deeds and the message of the Gospel that stand out the most and are drawing people to Christ or am I more like the Pharisees who keep our distance from these awful sinners ? Are we looked at as a people that are just religious or rather as people who have something very real inside them that draws them to the Saviour ? In other words, is the fruit of the Spirit so obvious in our lives that it draws some who have ears to hear the Gospel that is changing us.

Sorry, got to preaching a bit (mainly to myself) but I do enjoy discussing how Christianity is best presented to the world and always looking for those who are seeing results in the salvation of others. They are the ones that know how to fish. I believe good deeds is the bait and the hook is the message of the new birth.

[Outsider]

Sudsy wanted to know why I posted this series, and people have expressed an interest in what I think would be acceptable as "on topic" in the thread- so here are the answers to those questions.

I basically want to toss out ideas about the power and the blessing endowed in the ritual observances we, as gentile Christians, are obliged and encouraged to do in scripture.

I have every reason to believe these things are commands for the benefit of the entire congregation.

But on the personal level, they are selfish. We are yet in the corruptible flesh, and have not put on our incorruptible flesh, and have not yet received our full inheritance from the Lord our God through Jesus Christ, and ritual observance is calling a blessing and attendance from on high, by beings mightier than we in the Holy Spirit.

They serve the same function as the old covenant rituals.

Psalm 50
Gather ye to Me My saints, Making covenant with Me over a sacrifice.
6 And the heavens declare His righteousness, For God Himself [is] judge. Selah.
7 Hear, O My people, and I speak, O Israel, and I testify against thee, God, thy God [am] I.
8 Not for thy sacrifices do I reprove thee, Yea, thy burnt-offerings [Are] before Me continually.

The ritual observance is a command. You will be reproved if you do not do them.

9 I take not from thy house a bullock, From thy folds he goats.
10 For Mine [is] every beast of the forest, The cattle on the hills of oxen.
11 I have known every fowl of the mountains, And the wild beast of the field [is] with Me.
12 If I am hungry I tell not to thee, For Mine [is] the world and its fulness.
13 Do I eat the flesh of bulls, And drink the blood of he-goats?

The ritual is not for God. It is for your own sake and the sake of the congregation that you perform them.

14 Sacrifice to God confession, And complete to the Most High thy vows.
15 And call Me in a day of adversity, I deliver thee, and thou honourest Me.

The "weightier matters of the law" are our sacrifices to the Lord. This was true even under the old covenant, as we can see.

Rituals have no effect through physical nature on the world around us. But, they call upon the armies of the Lord to work for us! They work upon the spiritual realm, and war with authorities and powers far beyond us.

So, what are the rituals we, as gentile Christians are obligated to observe?

Communion, foot washing, head un/covering, and women's submission. Can anyone think of one I'm missing?

There are also the ritual purity commands: do not eat things sacrificed to idols, do not eat blood or things strangled, and to refrain from sexual immorality. None of these things, except the sexual immorality, have any direct consequence in the natural world. Yet they have dire consequences in the Spiritual realm.

These are also the easiest of the commands of God to obey. So why do people who profess to be in the Spirit fight so hard against them?

[nett]

Happens to my wife regularly and she has had several discussions about our faith and what we believe.
I don't get any acclaims from doing good work so to speak as I'm not showing it off. No one in the store knows I'm a Christian unless they talk to me. My work knows and knows my character and I've also had discussions. Random people though are far more likely to talk to my wife then to a random person wearing a t-shirt with "Jesus saves" on it.

David Black said the same thing about wearing broadfalls in public. He was regularly asked about his faith and lifestyle in every situations. I believe a few members of their church are people who were curious about him.

[Sudsy]

It seems like a stretch to think a headcovering in public is a tool to open the door to evangelizing and if it ever does occur, I would be interested to know how women get into a discussion regarding salvation from someone asking about their unique headcover. It can happen but does it ?

Yes, it happens.

Happens to my wife regularly and she has had several discussions about our faith and what we believe.
I don't get any acclaims from doing good work so to speak as I'm not showing it off. No one in the store knows I'm a Christian unless they talk to me. My work knows and knows my character and I've also had discussions. Random people though are far more likely to talk to my wife then to a random person wearing a t-shirt with "Jesus saves" on it.

In my experience, and I don't know what your wife actually says, I can 'share my faith' yet never lead one soul to Christ. And I always had an excuse that some plant seeds, some water and some harvest, which is true but I believe if a church has no harvesters than something is wrong with the planting and watering. When this was brought to my attention by a 'soul winning believer' I realized that my discussions involving my faith was avoiding actually talking about the need for the listener to turn to Jesus and be saved from their sins. It was more of 'our church believes ----' or 'I believe ----' and it was not about the need to be born again.

When I engaged in door-to-door ministry a most common phrase people gave was 'my church believes' or something to that affect. Those who shared their faith and learned how to get to the heart of the matter, so to speak, were seeing results. People, and it may take multiple visits, first need to be saved and they don't need to join a church first as some try to do.

Jesus said when we shine our lights through good works it is in a way 'let you light so shine' that is not to get attention to ourselves but rather it is in a way that causes people to recognize God in us. I believe there will be a spiritual impact on our doing good works that stands out from good works by an unbeliever. Although this was not always the case in my life, my words and actions should result, in a very short time, that people around me know I am a Christian. If it doesn't there is a good chance that I am not sharing the Gospel message with them desiring to see them saved.

A little personal story - I recently sold one of my cars to a lady and in the process I did everything I could do to make the process as easy for her as possible. She kept saying, oh I can do this or that and I had to keep asking her to let me do that for her. She kept thanking me and telling me how great I was being to her. But through this process I did not share my faith. Even to say something like, 'I think Jesus would want me to do this for you and I want to please Him'. Who knows what response this might have triggered that may have led me to lead her to Christ. A day later I get a phone call. It was my cousin who lived next door to the lady and she came to tell my cousin about this guy that sold her a car and what he had all done for her. My cousin realized she was talking about me so she just had to call me up and tell me how my good deeds had affected this lady. But I missed an opportunity to witness about Jesus. My cousin is a witnessing Christian and who knows, perhaps these good deeds will be some watering to what my cousin has already planted with this lady. My point is that I should be always looking for opportunities to share the Gospel message and good deeds when we get people's thanks is often an opportunity to turn the direction to Jesus from ourselves.

I have not had the opportunity to be around a woman wearing a headcovering and being questioned about it to see how they go with the conversation and if and how they make the bridge to the need for salvation.

I have a rock in my front yard engraved 'Jesus Is Lord' as I was hoping that this might open some conversation about Jesus. So far, it hasn't but even if one soul came to inquire about it and ended up being saved, it will be well worth putting it there. I do think it gives the JWs and Mormons a heads up when they come to my door. I love to talk with them.

[Laurell]

Really ? The headcovering tells people in the world something about creation and it also calls other Christians back to covenant faithfulness ? I would like to see a poll taken on this amongst believers and non-believers in our world to agree with this. My going in prediction is that neither of these is what is happening. It seems like a stretch to think a headcovering in public is a tool to open the door to evangelizing and if it ever does occur, I would be interested to know how women get into a discussion regarding salvation from someone asking about their unique headcover. It can happen but does it ? How often has any lady ever been asked about their headcovering and led someone to Christ that began this way. And later on he says don't reply that you are a Mennonite or some other religious group. If a Christian asks who doesn't cover then get into giving them a bible study on the subject.

As someone that did not grow up wearing a head covering (or even around people that did, like Matthew says of himself & Erika), I submitted to this scripture later in life when the scales fell my eyes about Paul's letter here-- I had the difficult but life-changing experience to begin covering my head and experience the difference in how people treated me. I also noticed how many opportunities it presented to discuss Jesus when I probably wouldn't have otherwise. I can't say that I have lead a stranger to Christ due to my veiling, but there have absolutely been seeds planted, and the overall act of submission has been part of my journey in bringing a relative to Christ.

[Soloist]

As someone that did not grow up wearing a head covering (or even around people that did, like Matthew says of himself & Erika), I submitted to this scripture later in life when the scales fell my eyes about Paul's letter here-- I had the difficult but life-changing experience to begin covering my head and experience the difference in how people treated me. I also noticed how many opportunities it presented to discuss Jesus when I probably wouldn't have otherwise. I can't say that I have lead a stranger to Christ due to my veiling, but there have absolutely been seeds planted, and the overall act of submission has been part of my journey in bringing a relative to Christ.

One difference between conservatives and liberals is that conservatives tend to mention Jesus rejected by most of His followers while liberals focus on how they added daily to the church.

I tend to look at Mennonite churches and ask how many seekers have come through because it seems like almost all of them get seekers and then I try to determine why they didn't stay. I do think there is a societal difference between today and 30-60 years ago that make it harder today to accept some of what the Mennonites teach. Head covering isn't one of them and I haven't seen seekers come in who find covering to be a burden because generally the seeker comes to conviction on covering on their own. They might object to specific styles or the thin nature of the covering though. Thankfully my church was accepting on an opaque cap.

[temporal1]

i don’t believe it can be denied that plain dress, even modest or conservative “worldly” dress, influence others, directly, and often, indirectly, not consciously recognized.

one indicator is this forum, and formerly, MD.
a number arrive interested in .. those with distinctive dress, the Amish are highly recognized by dress and transportation.
possibly unconsciously. people are searching for a better way.

even if seekers arrive and do not stay .. i imagine they carry interest and influence with them; sometimes negative, but, nevertheless, thought has been stimulated. to seek more. faith is a journey, each day a new step.

having said that, i’m reminded, early-on, dress was not distinctive - as we understand it today.
fashions have changed, plain dressers have not, which leads to a bit of confusion about how+why it began.
from what i’ve learned, distinctive dress (and transportation) didn’t begin with the same emphasis seen today.

dress sends a message. many messages, really.

please add/correct.

[Sudsy]

Really ? The headcovering tells people in the world something about creation and it also calls other Christians back to covenant faithfulness ? I would like to see a poll taken on this amongst believers and non-believers in our world to agree with this. My going in prediction is that neither of these is what is happening. It seems like a stretch to think a headcovering in public is a tool to open the door to evangelizing and if it ever does occur, I would be interested to know how women get into a discussion regarding salvation from someone asking about their unique headcover. It can happen but does it ? How often has any lady ever been asked about their headcovering and led someone to Christ that began this way. And later on he says don't reply that you are a Mennonite or some other religious group. If a Christian asks who doesn't cover then get into giving them a bible study on the subject.

As someone that did not grow up wearing a head covering (or even around people that did, like Matthew says of himself & Erika), I submitted to this scripture later in life when the scales fell my eyes about Paul's letter here-- I had the difficult but life-changing experience to begin covering my head and experience the difference in how people treated me. I also noticed how many opportunities it presented to discuss Jesus when I probably wouldn't have otherwise. I can't say that I have lead a stranger to Christ due to my veiling, but there have absolutely been seeds planted, and the overall act of submission has been part of my journey in bringing a relative to Christ.

Thankyou. I appreciate you sharing your testimony and whenever, for whatever, we get the opportunity to share about Jesus is a good thing. In the video comments above I was challenging his thoughts on what he said about the headcovering pointing people to creation and Christians to covenant faithfulness. If wearing one in public does open a door to sharing Jesus with others I was interested to know how these kind of conversations unfolded and whether or not they really got to sharing about Jesus.

As I referenced before the Salvation Army uniform always appealed to me as a means to attract people to want to, at least, discuss religion which can be a door opener. However, in the NT I don't read of any apparel worn to attract people to spiritual conversations. It was always their good deeds. And, in my two year experience in the Salvation Army, although I never wore the uniform, I did notice and in discussion with others that the uniform was not the main drawing to Christ but rather their good deeds. Jesus said we shine our lights by good deeds that are done in such a way that they shine a light within us that is hard to ignore.

I know a number of people who wear a necklace with a cross on them. They often are from the Roman Catholic faith group. To me, this has meant that they were Roman Catholic in their faith, although not always the case. But I wonder just how many if asked about why they wear that are ready with an answer that involves salvation. Do they simply refer to what faith group they belong to or do they use this as a means to talk about Jesus and what He did for us on the cross. Same goes for the headcovering, is it explained that this is what their faith group requires of them and/or this has a certain meaning to them that opens a door to talking about Jesus.

I'm glad to hear that this works for you as a door opener to further conversation about Jesus. And I agree this can be a conversation that is a planting of seed or a watering of seed already planted. I just am curious when what is planted and watered does not result in a harvest. Could it be that we are not planting and watering the seeds that will provide a harvest of born again believers ? When I plant and water something in my garden I expect to receive a certain kind of harvest. And, no doubt, somethings can interfere with a harvest being had. But also if the seed I am planting is not the right seed I will not get what I am hoping to harvest. I think sometimes seeds are planted and watered that just produce pew bench warmers. They do not produce a harvest of born again, Spirit filled followers of Christ. So the quality and kind of seed we are planting is very important.

Anyway, interesting to hear of how wearing a headcovering in public has given you opportunities to share Jesus.