Headship Series

[Outsider]

Our overall culture has gone ‘way overboard in rejecting headship order.
The price is high and widespread.

Sin is to blame, not headship order.

For awhile in medieval times a popular notion was that women didn't have souls... (googles) and dear Lord have mercy, some still do! I had no idea!

https://www.landoverbaptist.net/showthread.php?t=4958

Extreme male chauvinism is just as unscriptural as the so-called "egalitarian" teachings. I say so-called because it is true there is "no male, no female... etc" in Christ, but "every part of the body has it's own function." And the "egalitarian" position is that a hand can do the foot's job...

A man who abuses headship, IMHO is like the servant who's master forgave his debts, and who went right out and beat and imprisoned his fellow-servant (obviously he had the authority over the other servant to get away with this). The end will not be good for them.

[Soloist]

Is the headship order any different then the God ordained rulers?

Is the parental authority any different then the headship order?

God appointed men to rule their household as he appointed fathers and mothers and kings.

My wife would be happy to articulate to you why the headship order is not unbiblical nor anti-women. She has gone to several ladies meetings on a variety of topics, sewing circle and I don't see those as not useful.
This is no different then the rebellion of Korah (per my wife).

[Josh]

I'm not sure why Sudsy posted what he did, since what that person is addressing has almost nothing to do with Matthew Milioni's talks.

[Sudsy]

Got through the second video, no issues.

Actually the community spirit he ended this with reminds me of the Pentecostal church I grew up in. We were quite close and open with each other praying for and being there for each other in any situation. This church was primarily first generation believers and very keen on reaching the lost. Many services went 2 or more hours and often we didn't want to go home. We had some sort of gathering 6 out of 7 days a week and sometimes when visiting teachers came it was all 7 nights. 3 services on Sundays. Those were some good times.

Will look at the last two tomorrow. I'm still curious on what he might have to say about any restraints on women's participation in the church.

[Sudsy]

I'm not sure why Sudsy posted what he did, since what that person is addressing has almost nothing to do with Matthew Milioni's talks.

I reacted that way as these are long videos to watch and in my experience the word headship usually had to do with restricting women in certain types of ministry. So far, watching the first two, I haven't run across that.

I also have my reservations about how some have regarded how they can treat their wives as the head of the household and so far I appreciate what he has said about using authority and how it can be abused. One of my best friends grew up in a Mennonite home with a very abusive father ( who was a deceptive elder) to his mother and my friend left the Christian faith saying he wanted nothing to do with this kind of Christianity.

Looking forward to watching the last two tomorrow.

[Josh]

I'm not sure why Sudsy posted what he did, since what that person is addressing has almost nothing to do with Matthew Milioni's talks.

I reacted that way as these are long videos to watch and in my experience the word headship usually had to do with restricting women in certain types of ministry. So far, watching the first two, I haven't run across that.

Yes, that would be a point of view and usage of this term that is uncommon in Anabaptist circles. Anabaptists usually use "headship" to refer to 1 Corinthians 11, where Paul tells us that the head of woman is man, and the head of man is Christ.

[temporal1]

I'm not sure why Sudsy posted what he did, since what that person is addressing has almost nothing to do with Matthew Milioni's talks.

It struck me as wildly off-topic, but look at what has unfolded. Esp Outsider’s responses above, which touch on several points not familiar to me. It’s the forum’s biggest conundrum (for me).

It’s such a shame that abuses are now more recognized than healthy headship order;
people commonly know about abuses and loudly point to them. Typically not able to even recognize the words, “headship order.”
The fallen world.

It’s well to know, that’s just how sin works, it doesn’t stay contained, it casts a wide net harming innocents with impunity.
Sin harms individuals, families, churches, communities, it’s not innocuous.

Women and children need their husbands+fathers. Churches and communities need their male leaders.
The pendulum has swung too far away, losses are real.

Women+children are valuable, priceless!

Abuse/sin should not be allowed to ruin God’s design. That’s always a mistake.

i admit, it’s a sensitive subject for me, trying to navigate life and what’s left of my family without husband-father, grandfathers, uncles, it’s unpleasant, how they are missed! How sad i am to know very well what my living family is missing without them.
i’m not sure any man can quite imagine what life becomes for their families after they’re gone. i mean, i think we all imagine things will continue pretty much as they are without us. we can imagine some things, maybe? but, the full extent? i don’t think so.

So. Appreciate one another for the time you have. Help one another thrive. Not ruthlessly dominate, whether male or female.
Not covet what another has. Thrive.

[Outsider]

This guy seems to have the most coherent exposition of the "egalitarian" position than any offered so far. The whole argument is based on semantics, and obscure etymologies of various words.

[Outsider]

I also have my reservations about how some have regarded how they can treat their wives as the head of the household and so far I appreciate what he has said about using authority and how it can be abused. One of my best friends grew up in a Mennonite home with a very abusive father ( who was a deceptive elder) to his mother and my friend left the Christian faith saying he wanted nothing to do with this kind of Christianity.

Abusers of headship are like this:

The Parable of the Unforgiving Servant

21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”

22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. 23 Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. 25 But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made. 26 The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, ‘Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 27 Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.

28 “But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, ‘Pay me what you owe!’ 29 So his fellow servant fell down at his feet and begged him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 30 And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt. 31 So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.

35“So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”

[Sudsy]

Just watched video 3 and there are some things I believe the same and well said and others I'm suspicious about. Must watch the last one later today.

YMMV but it has always made me uneasy with a presentation of Christianity that seems to disregard the culture where we live in as we try to persuade not yet believers to follow Christ and have eternal life. I suspect some rebuttals and perhaps I can be persuaded to view things differently.

Regarding the head covering making a statement to the world we live in, I really doubt that the statement of order is anything most people in the world understand it as. Just ask people in the world what they think this symbol of a headcovering means in our culture. Actually, as he said, I wonder if many that wear a headcovering can explain it to someone other than it is the practise of their church. So, if it is making a statement of order, my guess is it might be to unseen angels but not to 'joe public'. I would not be surprised that is more of a stumbling block to the unsaved than it is a testimony that draws people to Christ. If that is the case, then I think headcoverings are not anything needed in public but rather during church meetings when praying and prophesying. Like the cape dresses we see plenty of in our city, does the world regard these as dressing modestly or rather a religious costume of a sort ? There are all kinds of modest, modern dress that other Christians wear that in our culture still would be regarded as modest attire. It is how we treat the unsaved that will speak to them the most and not our religious costumes.

I really don't think Christianity was meant to major on outward apparel but rather on sharing the Gospel and quite involved in good deeds. Taking off wedding rings as he mentioned, what does that mean to the unsaved ? In our culture if you are married and take off this identifier as a married person, you are saying I'm free to flirt with. So, we put on a symbol on our heads to represent God's headship order, which most unsaved people have no interest in, and we take off a ring symbol which in our culture can mean I'm not married and available. I don't think this is how Paul shared his faith. Paul said he became like a Jew or like a Gentile to get the message of the Gospel to them. Not that Paul went and got drunk with them or shared in their contempt for other religions but he had a main goal of seeing others come to know the Lord.

I will add that I also believe relating to the culture we live in, by some Christian faith groups, has become so worldly that the results are not producing born again believers but rather church goers that live very shallow, carnal, spiritual lives. I believe going back to living in the exact same way as those in the early church is not relating enough to our culture today and this is evident by the lack of growth by many churches who try to do this. We can forget that what is written in the NT letters were written in a timely way to a culture much unlike today.

Well, OK, sock it to me.