Apostasy of the 1960s-Chester Weaver-Anabaptist Perspectives

[GaryK]

I hang my head in shame in that there was a time I might of said something like the phrase "If you do not like it go somewhere else ". And I justified it by saying we are not a cult that demands you stay with us or you are lost if you go elsewhere. Also I felt it was important that we be a volunteer church and that each person chooses to be there.
But what I have come to realize is the amount of people that feel alienated because they do not feel listened to. They may even be in the majority with their thinking but because a few people feel really strongly about a certain thing nothing ever changes. I think that thing alone is at least the thing that pushes people over the edge.

Take the Bible version thing. Among the moderate conservative congregations that I am familiar with there are very very few leaders that actually feel strongly that the KJV is the best version to be using in our churches in this day and age. If you took a vote of all members of most of the moderate conservative groups I am guessing that 90 percent would prefer a more modern version be used at worship and if you polled those under 40 it would be even higher than that.
But in spite of that many churches are not even having the discussion. And that is discouraging to me. If we cannot even move on something like that where there is a broad consensus and a very strong argument to be made that change would be good how will anything ever change?

For years I've been looking for examples of already established "Anabaptist" churches that have been willing to make changes along the lines of what you describe here with the intent of moving toward the more authentic Anabaptism Chester and others refer to. Are there any that have actually accomplished it?

In a sense it seems whenever the discussion of what constitutes authentic Anabaptism happens, the focus is primarily on Anabaptist history, which I think is a vitally important part of the discussion, but what I feel is often lacking in these discussions is what does authentic Anabaptism look like moving forward. Where are the modern day examples of authentic Anabaptism?

[Ernie]

I think it’s not so much a matter of babies and bath water, It might be more of a matter of new wine in old wine skins (as much as I hate to say it).

I'm not sure I am getting the point your are trying to make. I can understand the difference between these two illustrations but not sure I can get the underlying differences that you seem to be thinking of. Can you explain further?

The old institutions are not suitable for the converted.

Thanks for 'splainin that to me. Now I understand why you hated to say it.

[Mountain Merle]

Where are the modern day examples of authentic Anabaptism?

My question exactly.

[appleman2006]

I hang my head in shame in that there was a time I might of said something like the phrase "If you do not like it go somewhere else ". And I justified it by saying we are not a cult that demands you stay with us or you are lost if you go elsewhere. Also I felt it was important that we be a volunteer church and that each person chooses to be there.
But what I have come to realize is the amount of people that feel alienated because they do not feel listened to. They may even be in the majority with their thinking but because a few people feel really strongly about a certain thing nothing ever changes. I think that thing alone is at least the thing that pushes people over the edge.

Take the Bible version thing. Among the moderate conservative congregations that I am familiar with there are very very few leaders that actually feel strongly that the KJV is the best version to be using in our churches in this day and age. If you took a vote of all members of most of the moderate conservative groups I am guessing that 90 percent would prefer a more modern version be used at worship and if you polled those under 40 it would be even higher than that.
But in spite of that many churches are not even having the discussion. And that is discouraging to me. If we cannot even move on something like that where there is a broad consensus and a very strong argument to be made that change would be good how will anything ever change?

For years I've been looking for examples of already established "Anabaptist" churches that have been willing to make changes along the lines of what you describe here with the intent of moving toward the more authentic Anabaptism Chester and others refer to. Are there any that have actually accomplished it?

In a sense it seems whenever the discussion of what constitutes authentic Anabaptism happens, the focus is primarily on Anabaptist history, which I think is a vitally important part of the discussion, but what I feel is often lacking in these discussions is what does authentic Anabaptism look like moving forward. Where are the modern day examples of authentic Anabaptism?

Here is the thing. They are out there. In almost every group and sub group. Individuals who rise above the fray and live the hands and feet of Jesus on a daily basis to their brothers and sisters and the community around them.
I know because I have seen them in action. It is what motivates me to keep going. When I am big I want to be a little bit like some of them.

[GaryK]

I hang my head in shame in that there was a time I might of said something like the phrase "If you do not like it go somewhere else ". And I justified it by saying we are not a cult that demands you stay with us or you are lost if you go elsewhere. Also I felt it was important that we be a volunteer church and that each person chooses to be there.
But what I have come to realize is the amount of people that feel alienated because they do not feel listened to. They may even be in the majority with their thinking but because a few people feel really strongly about a certain thing nothing ever changes. I think that thing alone is at least the thing that pushes people over the edge.

Take the Bible version thing. Among the moderate conservative congregations that I am familiar with there are very very few leaders that actually feel strongly that the KJV is the best version to be using in our churches in this day and age. If you took a vote of all members of most of the moderate conservative groups I am guessing that 90 percent would prefer a more modern version be used at worship and if you polled those under 40 it would be even higher than that.
But in spite of that many churches are not even having the discussion. And that is discouraging to me. If we cannot even move on something like that where there is a broad consensus and a very strong argument to be made that change would be good how will anything ever change?

For years I've been looking for examples of already established "Anabaptist" churches that have been willing to make changes along the lines of what you describe here with the intent of moving toward the more authentic Anabaptism Chester and others refer to. Are there any that have actually accomplished it?

In a sense it seems whenever the discussion of what constitutes authentic Anabaptism happens, the focus is primarily on Anabaptist history, which I think is a vitally important part of the discussion, but what I feel is often lacking in these discussions is what does authentic Anabaptism look like moving forward. Where are the modern day examples of authentic Anabaptism?

Here is the thing. They are out there. In almost every group and sub group. Individuals who rise above the fray and live the hands and feet of Jesus on a daily basis to their brothers and sisters and the community around them.
I know because I have seen them in action. It is what motivates me to keep going. When I am big I want to be a little bit like some of them.

I agree there are individuals who are modeling it but I'm wondering where I can find examples of groups that are modeling it. It seems like it's much harder to model as a group.

[appleman2006]

For years I've been looking for examples of already established "Anabaptist" churches that have been willing to make changes along the lines of what you describe here with the intent of moving toward the more authentic Anabaptism Chester and others refer to. Are there any that have actually accomplished it?

In a sense it seems whenever the discussion of what constitutes authentic Anabaptism happens, the focus is primarily on Anabaptist history, which I think is a vitally important part of the discussion, but what I feel is often lacking in these discussions is what does authentic Anabaptism look like moving forward. Where are the modern day examples of authentic Anabaptism?

Here is the thing. They are out there. In almost every group and sub group. Individuals who rise above the fray and live the hands and feet of Jesus on a daily basis to their brothers and sisters and the community around them.
I know because I have seen them in action. It is what motivates me to keep going. When I am big I want to be a little bit like some of them.

I agree there are individuals who are modeling it but I'm wondering where I can find examples of groups that are modeling it. It seems like it's much harder to model as a group.

I know I am stepping on dangerous ground here but I wonder if our "pure church doctrine" that is so ingrained into us is part of the problem. Is it possible to have a perfect body of believer's all on fire for God all of the time considering that the church is made of less than perfect individuals? Is that even what the church is about. Should there not be room for the sick to grow and be healed among us?

I know. I know. The LCD arguments and all that. But we all recognise that as individuals we are all less than perfect and simply striving towards perfection. Perfection that is only completed in Jesus within us. What if we used some of the same logic to the local church body? I do not know. I am thinking out loud hear and kind of talking to myself.

[Wade]

Here is the thing. They are out there. In almost every group and sub group. Individuals who rise above the fray and live the hands and feet of Jesus on a daily basis to their brothers and sisters and the community around them.
I know because I have seen them in action. It is what motivates me to keep going. When I am big I want to be a little bit like some of them.

I agree there are individuals who are modeling it but I'm wondering where I can find examples of groups that are modeling it. It seems like it's much harder to model as a group.

I know I am stepping on dangerous ground here but I wonder if our "pure church doctrine" that is so ingrained into us is part of the problem. Is it possible to have a perfect body of believer's all on fire for God all of the time considering that the church is made of less than perfect individuals? Is that even what the church is about. Should there not be room for the sick to grow and be healed among us?

I know. I know. The LCD arguments and all that. But we all recognise that as individuals we are all less than perfect and simply striving towards perfection. Perfection that is only completed in Jesus within us. What if we used some of the same logic to the local church body? I do not know. I am thinking out loud hear and kind of talking to myself.

I think you are echoing what Chester expressed, as far as I understood it, in his interview with Dean, Titus, and others. The first 20 minutes I thought Chester really surprised these guys how much he was able to share a kingdom vision. But then by the end he was mostly apologizing and I thought he realized what you are saying and in humility didn't want to keep saying there are a bunch of others don't get it and rather wants to be patient with each one in their growth. The ironic thing is that some of those others that don't get it seem necessary many times in supporting those that do...

And this is what LCD means according to Google:

LCD [ ēl ′ sē-dē′ ] Short for liquid-crystal display. A low-power, flat-panel display used in many digital devices to display numbers or images.

What does it mean to you?

[HondurasKeiser]

Here is the thing. They are out there. In almost every group and sub group. Individuals who rise above the fray and live the hands and feet of Jesus on a daily basis to their brothers and sisters and the community around them.
I know because I have seen them in action. It is what motivates me to keep going. When I am big I want to be a little bit like some of them.

I agree there are individuals who are modeling it but I'm wondering where I can find examples of groups that are modeling it. It seems like it's much harder to model as a group.

I know I am stepping on dangerous ground here but I wonder if our "pure church doctrine" that is so ingrained into us is part of the problem. Is it possible to have a perfect body of believer's all on fire for God all of the time considering that the church is made of less than perfect individuals? Is that even what the church is about. Should there not be room for the sick to grow and be healed among us?

I know. I know. The LCD arguments and all that. But we all recognise that as individuals we are all less than perfect and simply striving towards perfection. Perfection that is only completed in Jesus within us. What if we used some of the same logic to the local church body? I do not know. I am thinking out loud hear and kind of talking to myself.

J.D. Roth’s critique of the Yoder essay that WiM posted shares a similar sentiment.

[GaryK]

Here is the thing. They are out there. In almost every group and sub group. Individuals who rise above the fray and live the hands and feet of Jesus on a daily basis to their brothers and sisters and the community around them.
I know because I have seen them in action. It is what motivates me to keep going. When I am big I want to be a little bit like some of them.

I agree there are individuals who are modeling it but I'm wondering where I can find examples of groups that are modeling it. It seems like it's much harder to model as a group.

I know I am stepping on dangerous ground here but I wonder if our "pure church doctrine" that is so ingrained into us is part of the problem. Is it possible to have a perfect body of believer's all on fire for God all of the time considering that the church is made of less than perfect individuals? Is that even what the church is about. Should there not be room for the sick to grow and be healed among us?

I know. I know. The LCD arguments and all that. But we all recognise that as individuals we are all less than perfect and simply striving towards perfection. Perfection that is only completed in Jesus within us. What if we used some of the same logic to the local church body? I do not know. I am thinking out loud hear and kind of talking to myself.

If individuals can imperfectly model what is being sought after then it seems it would follow that a group of individuals could imperfectly model it as well. It seems this is what Chester and many of us are longing for but what it will take for a group to even imperfectly model it is a discussion I very seldom hear about. We have conversations about what is lacking and fundamentalism's role in what is wrong with present day Anabaptism, but when it comes to making the necessary moves to fix the problems, CA's don't seem to know how to move forward. Perhaps it's time to, yes, get to know our historical story, but then also move past that toward figuring out what authentic Anabaptism is in the 21st century. I would love to see some group examples emerge from such a quest.

[Ms. Izzie]

I think it's in the "pure church doctrine" and in our almost idolatrous pursuit of "community", among other things. The lengths we will go in order to keep the "community" sometimes has the potential of forfeiting our soul. The story of the Anabaptists is important in showing us how to forsake what we know in order to know Christ. After they had done this, they found community.

The human tendency is that when we see or have community we institutionalize confessions/creeds/etc. of the community in order to keep it and pass it on. Community is found when we know Christ and it isn't necessarily within the institutional walls, although it can be found there too. In my opinion, one of the best ways in America to find the followers of Jesus is to look for people who take seriously Jesus' teachings on money because wealth is such a numbing and binding influence in our culture.