Apostasy of the 1960s-Chester Weaver-Anabaptist Perspectives

[Ernie]

I'm trying to find the quote where I think someone identified "community" as a sacrament of Anabaptists, and mentioned sacraments of other faith traditions as well. Bible for Protestants, Church authority for Catholics, etc. Can someone point me to that post?

[DrWojo]

I appreciate your observation that community has to be given. "It is the gift of the Holy Spirit" I once saw someone write. I also believe that it is given to those who are yielded - who have even surrendered the pain of their experiences at the hands of their church and are ready to make a new beginning. That's not easy. Sometimes it means bearing the pain of forgiving seventy times seven. We cannot be a church of one even if we have had bad experience and been abused by the communities with which we were once aligned.

After a person has been hurt, forgiving becomes a part of life. You are right; we cannot become a church of one. I often think of the Scripture that tells us, "Forsake not the assembling of ourselves together.

Even though I had very bad experiences and was harshly treated at the hands of "the community" (both when I was in it, and when I separated from it) I still believe what I wrote. It sounds no more trite than when Jesus said "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me." or "Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends."

I was thinking over the weekend of my use of the word "trite". I did not communicate well what I meant to say. I am sorry for trivializing your pain. When I read your words, I see a person who has walked in hard places and has wisdom to give.

I would like to know what advice you have for people who have been harshly treated by the community. Should they go back and try to live in the community, forgiving as they go and raise their children there? I have seen many people completely leave Anabaptism after bad experiences. Sometimes it seems like a catch 22 after bad experiences in an Anabaptist community.

I was just re-reading through this last post, especially the last paragraph and while it flooded my mind with many memories both personally and of others it would describe, both for good and unfortunately other memories far from evoking thoughts of pleasantness, it somehow brought to my mind words penned by the Apostle Paul in 1Corinthians 4. To help me sort through my thoughts I read Matthew Henry’s comments on the passage and thought I’d share a fair size quote from it. Hopefully some of the light I gleaned from it might encourage another Pilgrim as it did I:

1-6 Apostles were no more than servants of Christ, but they were not to be undervalued. They had a great trust, and for that reason, had an honourable office. Paul had a just concern for his own reputation, but he knew that he who chiefly aimed to please men, would not prove himself a faithful servant of Christ. It is a comfort that men are not to be our final judges. And it is not judging well of ourselves, or justifying ourselves, that will prove us safe and happy. Our own judgment is not to be depended upon as to our faithfulness, any more than our own works for our justification. There is a day coming, that will bring men's secret sins into open day, and discover the secrets of their hearts. Then every slandered believer will be justified, and every faithful servant approved and rewarded. The word of God is the best rule by which to judge as to men. Pride commonly is at the bottom of quarrels. Self-conceit contributes to produce undue esteem of our teachers, as well as of ourselves. We shall not be puffed up for one against another, if we remember that all are instruments, employed by God, and endowed by him with various talents.

7-13 We have no reason to be proud; all we have, or are, or do, that is good, is owing to the free and rich grace of God. A sinner snatched from destruction by sovereign grace alone, must be very absurd and inconsistent, if proud of the free gifts of God. St. Paul sets forth his own circumstances, ver. 9. Allusion is made to the cruel spectacles in the Roman games; where men were forced to cut one another to pieces, to divert the people; and where the victor did not escape with his life, though he should destroy his adversary, but was only kept for another combat, and must be killed at last. The thought that many eyes are upon believers, when struggling with difficulties or temptations, should encourage constancy and patience. "We are weak, but ye are strong." All Christians are not alike exposed. Some suffer greater hardships than others. The apostle enters into particulars of their sufferings. And how glorious the charity and devotion that carried them through all these hardships! They suffered in their persons and characters as the worst and vilest of men; as the very dirt of the world, that was to be swept away: nay, as the offscouring of all things, the dross of all things. And every one who would be faithful in Christ Jesus, must be prepared for poverty and contempt. Whatever the disciples of Christ suffer from men, they must follow the example, and fulfil the will and precepts of their Lord. They must be content, with him and for him, to be despised and abused.”

[Wade]

I appreciate your observation that community has to be given. "It is the gift of the Holy Spirit" I once saw someone write. I also believe that it is given to those who are yielded - who have even surrendered the pain of their experiences at the hands of their church and are ready to make a new beginning. That's not easy. Sometimes it means bearing the pain of forgiving seventy times seven. We cannot be a church of one even if we have had bad experience and been abused by the communities with which we were once aligned.

After a person has been hurt, forgiving becomes a part of life. You are right; we cannot become a church of one. I often think of the Scripture that tells us, "Forsake not the assembling of ourselves together.

Even though I had very bad experiences and was harshly treated at the hands of "the community" (both when I was in it, and when I separated from it) I still believe what I wrote. It sounds no more trite than when Jesus said "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me." or "Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends."

I was thinking over the weekend of my use of the word "trite". I did not communicate well what I meant to say. I am sorry for trivializing your pain. When I read your words, I see a person who has walked in hard places and has wisdom to give.

I would like to know what advice you have for people who have been harshly treated by the community. Should they go back and try to live in the community, forgiving as they go and raise their children there? I have seen many people completely leave Anabaptism after bad experiences. Sometimes it seems like a catch 22 after bad experiences in an Anabaptist community.

It's one thing to leave a community and another to leave Anabaptism altogether. I don't know what takes place inside a person that leaves Anabaptism altogether - other than relating their pain with form or what they perceive the groups view are in allowing their pain, or a complete inability to view people as individuals rather than discriminate against them all, or just flat out rejection of scripture? I'd desperately like to know because I'd like to help my wife get over whatever this is. It isn't fun forsaking fellowship just to keep her happy...