Princeton Prof Eddie Glaude - on racial issues

[Josh]

My frustration is that it seems very difficult to get many people to treat the experiences of minorities as valid. It often seems like a whole lot of the vigor in these vigorous discussions is an attempt to shut down the conversation.

I don't know if this is directed at me but if this is how you think I treat experiences of minorities and these discussions then I am doing a very poor job of communicating my thoughts.

Accusing someone of "not hearing minority voices" is a left-wing talking point that has become so common, a lot of otherwise good-hearted people like Bootstrap will repeat this in good faith.

It doesn't make the claim any more ridiculous. I happen to know through independent means that GaryK listens to and understands a lot of minority voices and has been doing so for years. Yet, in a discussion with Bootstrap or joshuabgood, there's an implicit assumption that because GaryK isn't immediately embracing the same positions they do, he must be "treating the experiences of minorities as valid".

This really needs to stop.

[Bootstrap]

My frustration is that it seems very difficult to get many people to treat the experiences of minorities as valid. It often seems like a whole lot of the vigor in these vigorous discussions is an attempt to shut down the conversation.

As Gary and I have clarified, I was not accusing Gary of this.

Accusing someone of "not hearing minority voices" is a left-wing talking point that has become so common, a lot of otherwise good-hearted people like Bootstrap will repeat this in good faith.

!!! SNIP !!!

This really needs to stop.

Trying to shut down the conversation, Josh?

Why is it a left-wing talking point to suggest that we should listen to black people when they share their experiences and not try to shut them down?

[joshuabgood]

Accusing someone of "not hearing minority voices" is a left-wing talking point that has become so common, a lot of otherwise good-hearted people like Bootstrap will repeat this in good faith.

Making this political isn't necessary. In fact it is irrelevant. The fact is 84% of people who are black feel like the legacy of slavery is alive.

[Bootstrap]

Making this political isn't necessary. In fact it is irrelevant. The fact is 84% of people who are black feel like the legacy of slavery is alive.

If you put it that way, I agree with you. In the same sense that the legacy of the American Revolution and the Civil War still affect all Americans today, so does the legacy of slavery. It affects our identity, our shared history, the memes that we think of. Southern literature always lives in the shadow of the Civil War.

Living here in the South, some white people seem to believe that the Civil War has strongly shaped white Southern identity, but slavery no longer affects black Southern identity. That seems like special pleading to me.

[Josh]

This may be a bit of a southerner vs northerner difference. Here in the north, we just don't think about the Civil War very often. Occasionally we drive by someone in, say, Kansas or California who has a Confederate flag in their yard, look at each other, shake our heads, and mutter something about haven't they heard which side won the war.

What is surprising about this is that measures of prejudice often are worse in the north than in the south. I would hazard that the legacy of slavery has a lot less impact today than one might think. Canada has trouble with racism and prejudice too, despite not having a history of slavery.

[Bootstrap]

This may be a bit of a southerner vs northerner difference. Here in the north, we just don't think about the Civil War very often. Occasionally we drive by someone in, say, Kansas or California who has a Confederate flag in their yard, look at each other, shake our heads, and mutter something about haven't they heard which side won the war.

What is surprising about this is that measures of prejudice often are worse in the north than in the south. I would hazard that the legacy of slavery has a lot less impact today than one might think. Canada has trouble with racism and prejudice too, despite not having a history of slavery.

I think all of this is true. I have probably seen more Confederate flags and Conferederate monuments than you have. Until 5 years ago, if you were a black person seeking justice in the courts of Maryland, you might encounter this statue, which was put there AFTER the Civil War was over:



That's Roger Taney. Here is one of his most famous quotes:

The question is simply this: can a negro whose ancestors were imported into this country and sold as slaves become a member of the political community formed and brought into existence by the Constitution of the United States, and as such become entitled to all the rights, and privileges, and immunities, guaranteed by that instrument to the citizen, one of which rights is the privilege of suing in a court of the United States in the cases specified in the Constitution?

We think they are not, and that they are not included, and were not intended to be included, under the word ‘citizens’ in the Constitution, and can therefore claim none of the rights and privileges which that instrument provides for and secures to citizens of the United States,. On the contrary, they were at that time considered as a subordinate and inferior class of beings who had been subjugated by the dominant race, and, whether emancipated or not, yet remained subject to their authority, and had no rights or privileges but such as those who held the power and the Government might choose to grant them.

That, of course, was precisely what Maryland wanted to communicate when they erected that statue after the Civil War.

To me, a statue erected to the man who said that does not belong in front of the courts of justice. When the statue was removed, there were protests by people who claimed this was a Civil War memorial, which is absurd. Supreme Court justices did not fight the Civil War. The Dred Scott decision is the only thing most people know Taney for.

That statue was removed just 5 years ago.

[Bootstrap]

Closer to home, here is the Silent Sam statue, which was torn down in 2018:



This statue was erected in 1913 by the United Daughters of the Confederacy. Here are some excerpts from the speech that was given when it was erected:

the present generation ... scarcely takes note of what the Confederate soldier meant to the welfare of the Anglo Saxon race during the four years immediately succeeding the war ... Their courage and steadfastness saved the very life of the Anglo Saxon race in the South.

!!! SNIP !!!

One hundred yards from where we stand, less than ninety days perhaps after my return from Appomattox, I horse-whipped a negro wench until her skirts hung in shreds, because upon the streets of this quiet village she had publicly insulted and maligned a Southern lady, and then rushed for protection to these University buildings where was stationed a garrison of 100 Federal soldiers. I performed the pleasing duty in the immediate presence of the entire garrison, and for thirty nights afterwards slept with a double-barrel shot gun under my head.

This statue was torn down only in 2018. It was erected 48 years after the end of the Civil War. When it was torn down, there was again controversy.

What do you think that statue meant to black students at UNC until 2018?

[joshuabgood]

This may be a bit of a southerner vs northerner difference. Here in the north, we just don't think about the Civil War very often. Occasionally we drive by someone in, say, Kansas or California who has a Confederate flag in their yard, look at each other, shake our heads, and mutter something about haven't they heard which side won the war.

What is surprising about this is that measures of prejudice often are worse in the north than in the south. I would hazard that the legacy of slavery has a lot less impact today than one might think. Canada has trouble with racism and prejudice too, despite not having a history of slavery.

The thing is, 84% percent of people who are actually black, disagree with you. As for Confederate flags, they aren't at all uncommon in PA.

[Bootstrap]

When I was in middle school, when I visited down here in the South and went out to play with black children , they would run away because their parents told them it was not safe to play with white children. One of them helpfully explained that to me.

When I was in high school, until the year I graduated, the schools were still segregated in the city where I live. I didn't move here until I was an adult, so I was shocked when I learned this. I know quite a few people who went to segregated schools.

[Bootstrap]

The thing is, 84% percent of people who are actually black, disagree with you.

And when the percentages are that high, it has to mean something. To understand what it means, we really should ask them, lots of them, who may have different perspectives on it.

Let's not shout them down or tell them to shut up. Let's not change the subject. Let's not use political narratives to silence them, saying that they are probably Democrats or gullible, or insisting that they should all believe what some black Trump supporter believes. Something is concerning a whole lot of black people. They are just as smart as white people, and their opinions on race deserve just as much a hearing as ours. They are certainly in a better position to tell us what they experience.

We are in a good position to say what we experience - including the times we feel unfairly judged about race. Should they dismiss us when we share our own perspectives on race?