Understanding the Culture of Generational Poverty and Dependency

[PeterG]

We have truly gotten to a point where some can reasonably conclude that hard work does not pay.

This is an underappreciated factor, especially considering the historical context that many poverty-stricken communities have arisen from. And it's not just a point that we have recently gotten to; for many communities it's a reality that goes back centuries. The ancestors of a large majority of African Americans, for example, were brought to this country by force for the specific purpose of making other people wealthy. (Talk about dependency, by the way.) When slavery was ended, African Americans in the South had extremely limited opportunities to do anything but sharecropping, an appallingly exploitative, corrupt system that persisted until around World War II. African Americans in the North often had much better job opportunities, but circumstances such as "redlining" policies that systematically prevented them from buying homes limited their ability to benefit from their incomes. It is a historical fact that hard work has not paid for generations of African Americans, long before the era of the McJob. This reality has far greater impact than any residual memory of African agricultural conditions, influencing attitudes towards life and the availability of resources. To be clear, I believe that people have the ability and the responsibility to rise above their circumstances, but these create significant obstacles that any of us would struggle with. (And for what it's worth, poor white Southerners and their descendants have faced many of the same circumstances and obstacles, with similar consequences.)

I was disappointed that Clayton did not seem to take these things into account other than briefly alluding to slavery. I did appreciate that he mentioned agricultural subsidies; he might also have mentioned the EITC, the mortgage interest deduction, etc. And I salute his efforts to build God's kingdom and serve the people of his community. I'm not sure I could accomplish a small fraction of what he's doing.

[Judas Maccabeus]

...This has reduced the value of (Particularly male) labor, face it a "McJob" really does not pay any more than what one can get through disability, hence the disability rolls have exploded. We have truly gotten to a point where some can reasonably conclude that hard work does not pay.

That's a point I would like to focus on. Can we motivate others (and ourselves!) economically in the Kingdom of God by some other means than profit and gain?

“Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink, nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? And which of you by being anxious can add a single hour to his span of life? And why are you anxious about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin, yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is alive and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? Therefore do not be anxious, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ For the Gentiles seek after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them all. But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you."

Some of this is so that we might eat, since the land does not generally give food without work. This being a result of the fall of Adam and Eve, so we are motivated first by that need.

J.M.

[Wayne in Maine]

...This has reduced the value of (Particularly male) labor, face it a "McJob" really does not pay any more than what one can get through disability, hence the disability rolls have exploded. We have truly gotten to a point where some can reasonably conclude that hard work does not pay.

That's a point I would like to focus on. Can we motivate others (and ourselves!) economically in the Kingdom of God by some other means than profit and gain?

“Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink, nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? And which of you by being anxious can add a single hour to his span of life? And why are you anxious about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin, yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is alive and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? Therefore do not be anxious, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ For the Gentiles seek after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them all. But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you."

Some of this is so that we might eat, since the land does not generally give food without work. This being a result of the fall of Adam and Eve, so we are motivated first by that need.

J.M.

So selfish greed is meritorious?

[Judas Maccabeus]

That's a point I would like to focus on. Can we motivate others (and ourselves!) economically in the Kingdom of God by some other means than profit and gain?

“Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink, nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? And which of you by being anxious can add a single hour to his span of life? And why are you anxious about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin, yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is alive and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? Therefore do not be anxious, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ For the Gentiles seek after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them all. But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you."

Some of this is so that we might eat, since the land does not generally give food without work. This being a result of the fall of Adam and Eve, so we are motivated first by that need.

J.M.

So selfish greed is meritorious?

No. But work IS commanded by God. Adam was commanded to labor for six days, and rest on the seventh.

Lastly:

2 Thess 3:10 " For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: “The one who is unwilling to work shall not eat.”"

We work because we are commanded to, because we must in order to live and because we do not have a need for too much idle time. Working to earn one's bread is not selfish, it is removing a burden from the community.

J.M.

[ohio jones]

Adam was commanded to labor for six days, and rest on the seventh.

Was there a Sabbath command before the manna in Exodus 16? The creation principle was there of course, but do we actually find the day of rest observed in Genesis?

[Josh]

Work is obviously something humans must do.

Acquiring wealth and power, on the other hand, is definitely not what people in Jesus’ kingdom are supposed to be striving for.

I’m also not sure why Clayton Shenk would be expected to talk about slavery or other facets of 19th-century society. He’s focused on the here and now.

[Judas Maccabeus]

Adam was commanded to labor for six days, and rest on the seventh.

Was there a Sabbath command before the manna in Exodus 16? The creation principle was there of course, but do we actually find the day of rest observed in Genesis?

You are entirely correct. I should have said Adam was told he must work in order to eat.

J.M.

[Judas Maccabeus]

Work is obviously something humans must do.

Acquiring wealth and power, on the other hand, is definitely not what people in Jesus’ kingdom are supposed to be striving for.

I’m also not sure why Clayton Shenk would be expected to talk about slavery or other facets of 19th-century society. He’s focused on the here and now.

I guess the question is how much is ok? How much should one accumulate so one is not dependent on church or society in old age?

J.M.

[PeterG]

I’m also not sure why Clayton Shenk would be expected to talk about slavery or other facets of 19th-century society. He’s focused on the here and now.

When the topic is "Generational Poverty and Dependency," it makes sense to discuss what's happened over the past several generations. Things like sharecropping and redlining existed well within living memory, and their effects persist in the here and now. They are significantly more relevant than African agricultural practices.

[Pelerin]

First, I appreciate that he acknowledged the ways that people who are not on welfare benefit from others. It always grates me when I hear about "those people on welfare" from men working for their fathers' businesses, or even from guys whose families bailed them out of their youthful indiscretions. We've all had a lot handed to us at birth, so let's not pretend we worked for everything we have.

Secondly, we all know about the Stanford Marshmallow Experiment, even if not by that name. Essentially, it found that young children who are able to delay gratification grow up to be more successful later in life. Recently, however, new research came out that examined those results more closely. It suggests that, actually it's the other way around: the affluence of a child's family predicts how successful he will be, and it's his family's affluence that enables him to delay gratification because he can trust that waiting will be rewarded (or at least not punished). That in turn suggests that fixing generational poverty is more than just a matter of a little budgetary discipline. Budgeting skills are valuable, but putting the focus there might be treating the symptom rather than the cause.

Finally, I appreciate that he looks for creative ways to avoid just giving a handout, and the ways he tries to create opportunities. For that reason, I think he should reconsider his unwillingness to lend money. Having cash available at the right moment can be the difference between taking advantage of a good opportunity or having to let it go by. Or, it can just mean not falling into the hole of a system that makes it expensive to be poor. I understand his reasoning, but making a loan available to someone can be one of the most effective things an individual can do for another.

I guess the question is how much is ok? How much should one accumulate so one is not dependent on church or society in old age?

Here's a question I don't have an answer for: Is being dependent a bad thing? Is it wrong to be expected to help support the elderly in, say the church, then in turn expecting to be supported in your own old age? Or reversing the question: Is being independent a good thing? I like to think of myself as independent, so I'm always a little leery of getting boxed in too close to other people. In the above scenario, I'd be wary that the relationships I'm depending on to support me in old age might go bad before I get there. Am I too individualistic?