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Outsider wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:29 pm

gcdonner wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:46 pm Sounds like we are both preterists of one sort or another.

I think many things have already come to pass, but some things are yet to come. The two witnesses, for example. I also believe there will be a tribulation, but that Christians will be in the midst of it, though untouched, to witness for the Lord:

Rev 9
4 They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

Outsider wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 3:26 pm

gcdonner wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 11:09 pm Paul's opinion changed towards the end of his life, as he knew that he would soon face death at the hand of Nero, but that does not negate the fact that when he spoke to the Thessalonians a few years earlier, he fully expected to be with them at the coming of the Lord.

I think there was a sense of excitement throughout the early church about the impending "coming of the lord". Because no one knew when he would come. "Like a thief in the night." I think it was an encouragement to strive to have the mark of the Lord on their foreheads, which probably all should be more fervent about receiving than trying to figure out "what is the mark of the beast" (which I also don't think is literal)

The "coming of the Kingdom in power" which Jesus prophesied many would see was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost.

You could also take "those who pierced him" literally if you consider those who are raised up from the dead.

1Th 5:1  But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 
2  For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 
3  For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 
4  But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 

Neto wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 6:24 pm

Outsider wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:29 pm

gcdonner wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:46 pm Sounds like we are both preterists of one sort or another.

I think many things have already come to pass, but some things are yet to come. The two witnesses, for example. I also believe there will be a tribulation, but that Christians will be in the midst of it, though untouched, to witness for the Lord:

Rev 9
4 They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

I see that you are referring to being "untouched" by the judgments which come on the earth in that time, and I agree. But many will be killed by the kingdoms of the earth, at least it appears so to me, from the mention of the "souls under the altar".

gcdonner wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:03 pm

Neto wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 6:24 pm

Outsider wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:29 pm

I think many things have already come to pass, but some things are yet to come. The two witnesses, for example. I also believe there will be a tribulation, but that Christians will be in the midst of it, though untouched, to witness for the Lord:

I see that you are referring to being "untouched" by the judgments which come on the earth in that time, and I agree. But many will be killed by the kingdoms of the earth, at least it appears so to me, from the mention of the "souls under the altar".

Your timing is different, by about 2000 years. Do you think that God has relegated those saints to being under the alter for 2000 years? They were told to rest for a little while, not 2 millennia.

Neto wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:38 pm

gcdonner wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:03 pm

Neto wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 6:24 pm

I see that you are referring to being "untouched" by the judgments which come on the earth in that time, and I agree. But many will be killed by the kingdoms of the earth, at least it appears so to me, from the mention of the "souls under the altar".

Your timing is different, by about 2000 years. Do you think that God has relegated those saints to being under the alter for 2000 years? They were told to rest for a little while, not 2 millennia.

Yes, I am aware that my understanding of the timing of these events is different than yours. And apparently the understanding of the identity of these saints is different as well, because I never said anything about 2,000 years. And I DID say "it appears so to me". I am not taking a dogmatic position on things like this.

gcdonner wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 10:28 pm

Neto wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:38 pm

gcdonner wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:03 pm

Your timing is different, by about 2000 years. Do you think that God has relegated those saints to being under the alter for 2000 years? They were told to rest for a little while, not 2 millennia.

Yes, I am aware that my understanding of the timing of these events is different than yours. And apparently the understanding of the identity of these saints is different as well, because I never said anything about 2,000 years. And I DID say "it appears so to me". I am not taking a dogmatic position on things like this.

You did, however say, "...many will be killed... Sounds pretty much like a made up mind...

gcdonner wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 10:28 pm

Neto wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:38 pm

gcdonner wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:03 pm

Your timing is different, by about 2000 years. Do you think that God has relegated those saints to being under the alter for 2000 years? They were told to rest for a little while, not 2 millennia.

Yes, I am aware that my understanding of the timing of these events is different than yours. And apparently the understanding of the identity of these saints is different as well, because I never said anything about 2,000 years. And I DID say "it appears so to me". I am not taking a dogmatic position on things like this.

You did, however say, "...many will be killed... Sounds pretty much like a made up mind...

Neto wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 6:24 pm

Outsider wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:29 pm

gcdonner wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:46 pm Sounds like we are both preterists of one sort or another.

I think many things have already come to pass, but some things are yet to come. The two witnesses, for example. I also believe there will be a tribulation, but that Christians will be in the midst of it, though untouched, to witness for the Lord:

Rev 9
4 They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

I see that you are referring to being "untouched" by the judgments which come on the earth in that time, and I agree. But many will be killed by the kingdoms of the earth, at least it appears so to me, from the mention of the "souls under the altar".

Outsider wrote: ↑Sat May 01, 2021 10:51 am

Neto wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 6:24 pm

Outsider wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:29 pm

I think many things have already come to pass, but some things are yet to come. The two witnesses, for example. I also believe there will be a tribulation, but that Christians will be in the midst of it, though untouched, to witness for the Lord:

I see that you are referring to being "untouched" by the judgments which come on the earth in that time, and I agree. But many will be killed by the kingdoms of the earth, at least it appears so to me, from the mention of the "souls under the altar".

Many have already been killed by the kingdoms of the Earth, but I think you may be right.

gcdonner wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:41 pm
Aha, you failed to remember what Paul said to the Thessalonians right after he encouraged them with the "catching away".

1Th 5:1  But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 
2  For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 
3  For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 

You still haven't satisfied me with the identity of the two witnesses. I just don't see their work in the historical record. And I don't believe that the church would have forgotten them, either. Nor do I believe the church would have missed the mass raising of the dead, or the mass transformation of the living church into their eternal forms. I just don't see it. I don't see destruction coming on all the faithless, either. Plus revelation being written after the destruction of the temple.