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Re: Programming for Mennonites?
Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2022 1:16 pm
by Ken
Franklin wrote: ↑Sun Mar 27, 2022 11:51 am
Szdfan wrote: ↑Sun Mar 27, 2022 8:08 am
You can argue that the VW Beetle was developed by evil people. However, the car was cheap, rather robust, reliable and simple to drive and maintain. Is the VW an evil car?
The Nazis were a mix of good and evil. Today's West is pure evil. This is the difference.
You have a rather unique political philosophy Franklin.
Re: Programming for Mennonites?
Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2022 1:19 pm
by Ken
nett wrote: ↑Sun Mar 27, 2022 12:26 pm
Szdfan wrote: ↑Sun Mar 27, 2022 8:08 am
You can argue that the VW Beetle was developed by evil people. However, the car was cheap, rather robust, reliable and simple to drive and maintain. Is the VW an evil car?
I know some VW owners who might say that exact thing after seeing their repair bills
I owned a series of VW beetles in college. They weren't great cars, especially the older 6 volt models. But they were dirt cheap back then. You could get whole rebuilt engines imported from Mexico for a couple hundred dollars and swap them out in an afternoon with ordinary hand tools.
I suppose they are more expensive today but that is because they are vintage collectors items and the stream of cheap parts from Mexico has long ago dried up.
Re: Programming for Mennonites?
Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2022 1:48 pm
by nett
Ken wrote: ↑Sun Mar 27, 2022 1:16 pm
Franklin wrote: ↑Sun Mar 27, 2022 11:51 am
Szdfan wrote: ↑Sun Mar 27, 2022 8:08 am
You can argue that the VW Beetle was developed by evil people. However, the car was cheap, rather robust, reliable and simple to drive and maintain. Is the VW an evil car?
The Nazis were a mix of good and evil. Today's West is pure evil. This is the difference.
You have a rather unique political philosophy Franklin.
Franklin is on to something
Re: Programming for Mennonites?
Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2022 2:30 pm
by Ken
nett wrote: ↑Sun Mar 27, 2022 1:48 pm
Ken wrote: ↑Sun Mar 27, 2022 1:16 pm
Franklin wrote: ↑Sun Mar 27, 2022 11:51 am
The Nazis were a mix of good and evil. Today's West is pure evil. This is the difference.
You have a rather unique political philosophy Franklin.
Franklin is on to something
You think so?
Are we going to get an essay here about the "good" parts of Nazi Germany or how they were better than the 2022 America?
Re: Programming for Mennonites?
Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2022 3:07 pm
by Szdfan
Ken wrote: ↑Sun Mar 27, 2022 2:30 pm
nett wrote: ↑Sun Mar 27, 2022 1:48 pm
Ken wrote: ↑Sun Mar 27, 2022 1:16 pm
You have a rather unique political philosophy Franklin.
Franklin is on to something
You think so?
Are we going to get an essay here about the "good" parts of Nazi Germany or how they were better than the 2022 America?
Yeah, I’m having a hard time with the idea that overly complex software is a sign of unremitting evil and depravity, but the Nazis who systematically murdered six million people had some good things about them.
Re: Programming for Mennonites?
Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2022 3:14 pm
by Neto
Regarding the topic (and expanded to include Amish users as well), I would say that if an OS were developed that would be capable of running programs currently being built for Windows, that would go a long way toward a good start for independence from the push toward required internet access.
The basic requirements (to my mind) would be cutting out all links to internet access, except some "tunnel" to allow email service, or better yet, a separate network for email that could port out to the internet via special service companies.
However, software development is very expensive, and so with such a limited market, if the initial release allowed for main-stream Windows programs to be installed, then it would be difficult to convince users to make the shift later on. (This is mainly a financial consideration, but related to both the initial cost of the program license, and also to the cost of training and lost employee time during the transition.)
With this consideration, it might be best to start with developing individual software packages that would be comparable in capabilities to main stream offerings in the same field, but specifically as "Desktop" or "perpetual" licensing. There is already a well-established trend in the open market toward subscription-only licensing, and so this approach would seem to be the fastest way to gain a share in the market, possibly even beyond the (very conservative) Mennonite and Amish business markets. Accounting would be my first priority, and it could be that this might be done in conjunction with the Classic Accounting program (for Lunix) in use on the Classic Steward word processors. (It WILL already run in the Windows environment, but has a ways to go before it can be considered a full replacement for programs like QuickBooks. The Eagle Business Management System accounting program was a good alternative, until they also largely switched to the subscription model. I don't have a current status for ABC Accounting.)
But seriously, the big challenge will be in the CAD field. It has become essential in many Amish-owned businesses, and much more complex to learn.
Perhaps the time has passed for this whole idea, and current users will be forced to make the decision of whether to allow themselves to be drug along to a place they never imagined ending up, or stepping back from the advancements in software development, and just working with older versions.
I think that there is something coming beyond all of this, however - computing as a service. (If you were around in the old days before personal computers, this would be like those big business computer systems where each office worker used a "dumb terminal" (now commonly referred to as a thin client) that could not function w/o the connection to the main frame computer in a back room - a BIG back room, with often rows of computers. Only now the 'main frame' is some place else entirely, and the connection is over the internet.
(I'm probably wasting my time writing all this, so I'll stop here.)
Re: Programming for Mennonites?
Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2022 3:50 pm
by Franklin
Neto wrote: ↑Sun Mar 27, 2022 3:14 pm
Regarding the topic (and expanded to include Amish users as well), I would say that if an OS were developed that would be capable of running programs currently being built for Windows, that would go a long way toward a good start for independence from the push toward required internet access.
I haven't done Windows app development recently but I suspect that this is very difficult. I assume that both Windows and modern apps have just gotten increasingly complicated so programming a new compatible OS to support these apps is a huge job. To repeat my view, software that depends only on Java is portable and can run on any OS. So later, one could write a new OS that just supports Java and this new OS could then be designed specifically for the needs Mennonites and Amish.
With this consideration, it might be best to start with developing individual software packages that would be comparable in capabilities to main stream offerings in the same field, but specifically as "Desktop" or "perpetual" licensing.
I have no opinion about licensing. And I don't know anything about accounting software or CAD. What I do know is that whenever I look for software for my needs, I am always frustrated by what I find which is generally overcomplicated and doesn't fully address my needs. The ideal initial software package to develop would be in an area where Mennonites or Amish have this experience, namely some area where they are dissatisfied with existing options.
If there is such an area and someone wants to write a software package for it, then I would work with them to make it happen including teaching any needed programming skills. They can retain all ownership of the software and all profit. I would just like to save programming itself from modern depravity.
Re: Programming for Mennonites?
Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2022 5:12 pm
by Sudsy
Ken wrote: ↑Sun Mar 27, 2022 1:16 pm
Franklin wrote: ↑Sun Mar 27, 2022 11:51 am
Szdfan wrote: ↑Sun Mar 27, 2022 8:08 am
You can argue that the VW Beetle was developed by evil people. However, the car was cheap, rather robust, reliable and simple to drive and maintain. Is the VW an evil car?
The Nazis were a mix of good and evil. Today's West is pure evil. This is the difference.
You have a rather unique political philosophy Franklin.
I agree, one I have not heard before. I was a computer mainframe programmer and computer systems designer and have no idea how any of the software I developed could ever be considered as something 'evil'. I am curious as to how this sort of thing could ever be associated with evil.
Re: Programming for Mennonites?
Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2022 5:33 pm
by Ken
Neto wrote: ↑Sun Mar 27, 2022 3:14 pm
Regarding the topic (and expanded to include Amish users as well), I would say that if an OS were developed that would be capable of running programs currently being built for Windows, that would go a long way toward a good start for independence from the push toward required internet access.
The basic requirements (to my mind) would be cutting out all links to internet access, except some "tunnel" to allow email service, or better yet, a separate network for email that could port out to the internet via special service companies.
However, software development is very expensive, and so with such a limited market, if the initial release allowed for main-stream Windows programs to be installed, then it would be difficult to convince users to make the shift later on. (This is mainly a financial consideration, but related to both the initial cost of the program license, and also to the cost of training and lost employee time during the transition.)
With this consideration, it might be best to start with developing individual software packages that would be comparable in capabilities to main stream offerings in the same field, but specifically as "Desktop" or "perpetual" licensing. There is already a well-established trend in the open market toward subscription-only licensing, and so this approach would seem to be the fastest way to gain a share in the market, possibly even beyond the (very conservative) Mennonite and Amish business markets. Accounting would be my first priority, and it could be that this might be done in conjunction with the Classic Accounting program (for Lunix) in use on the Classic Steward word processors. (It WILL already run in the Windows environment, but has a ways to go before it can be considered a full replacement for programs like QuickBooks. The Eagle Business Management System accounting program was a good alternative, until they also largely switched to the subscription model. I don't have a current status for ABC Accounting.)
But seriously, the big challenge will be in the CAD field. It has become essential in many Amish-owned businesses, and much more complex to learn.
Perhaps the time has passed for this whole idea, and current users will be forced to make the decision of whether to allow themselves to be drug along to a place they never imagined ending up, or stepping back from the advancements in software development, and just working with older versions.
I think that there is something coming beyond all of this, however - computing as a service. (If you were around in the old days before personal computers, this would be like those big business computer systems where each office worker used a "dumb terminal" (now commonly referred to as a thin client) that could not function w/o the connection to the main frame computer in a back room - a BIG back room, with often rows of computers. Only now the 'main frame' is some place else entirely, and the connection is over the internet.
(I'm probably wasting my time writing all this, so I'll stop here.)
But software these days isn't just limited to a desktop PC that might be in your office. There are about 100 million lines of code in the average car sold in 2022. Software runs farm equipment like tractors and harvesters. It runs the milking equipment and the control systems that run the cooling vats in any dairy. It runs the control panels that operate modern sileage systems like the blue Harvestore silos one sees all across farm country. It runs the thermostat and ventilation systems in chicken houses. It controls irrigation systems that monitor soil moisture and operate on timers. Etc. etc. etc.
Re: Programming for Mennonites?
Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2022 5:54 pm
by Franklin
Sudsy wrote: ↑Sun Mar 27, 2022 5:12 pm
I agree, one I have not heard before. I was a computer mainframe programmer and computer systems designer and have no idea how any of the software I developed could ever be considered as something 'evil'. I am curious as to how this sort of thing could ever be associated with evil.
Most languages don't distinguish between "evil" and "bad". Hebrew doesn't. Modern software is bad. This is the result of bad values. Modern people's values are entirely bad which means that everything that they design is bad. Are such values evil? This is just a semantic question.
Why did God command the Israelites to destroy everything they found in the Canaanite cities that they conquered? Because these Canaanites were just like members of the modern West. Everything they produced was bad, and God didn't want the Israelites to learn bad values from the bad things that the Canaanites produced.