Programming for Mennonites?

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Franklin
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Programming for Mennonites?

Post by Franklin »

In my trip to Mexico, I talked to a Mennonite who shares a lot of my views. He believes that Mennonites should try to be more self-sufficient. Unlike in America, Mexican Mennonites are seriously involved in manufacturing and run factories. But for this, they depend on a lot of outside technology. Of course everything produced by modern culture is horrible and is overcomplicated and unreliable. I am a programmer myself and my solution has been to rewrite almost all software tools that I need to use. Modern programmers are pure evil who hate all good software and love the most horrible overcomplicated software. My software is extremely simple and reliable. And so of course my software is hated by all modern programmers (see Isaiah 5:20-21 and Matthew 7:6). I currently only work with Russian technical people because they are not yet completely depraved.

I told all this to the Mennonite I talked to and he seemed interested in having Mennonites use my software. My question is whether American Mennonites would have any interest in a simply reliable programming language. If there is an interest then I would develop an online programming class for Mennonites that would allow them to become effective programmers without having to use depraved modern software. Of course I would offer this for free. I can't imaging charging for anything that is good. Modern people only like junk, so that what I sell. Good things are so rare that they should be made available for free in order to try to increase the tiny amount goodness in this horrible world.
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Neto
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Re: Programming for Mennonites?

Post by Neto »

I know some Amish who do programming, but it's not high level stuff like an operating system. Several years ago an Amish minister / businessman asked me to come in for a discussion about the issue of the direction Microsoft (and others) have taken the Windows platform. It has only gotten worse since then. He suggested starting from scratch, with the OS, etc. I am not myself a programmer (he is much more so than I), so I suggested starting with a modified Lunix OS. One might also start with something like Free DOS, but I wonder if heavily visual programs like CAD could be built to work in that environment. But here's the thing, if you want to really have control of the direction of software development and expect businesses to be able to make the switch, then you need to be able to build a whole lot of different kinds of software
- an accounting that can import from the leading Windows accounting programs, and that produces reports that are acceptable to accountants
- specialized CAD programs for all sorts of different fields, such as machining, home design, furniture & cabinetry, even landscaping
- photo & publishing design for brochures, flyers, and catalogs
- etc.

It's a massive project. OR, there must be a willingness to "go back in time" so to speak, giving up things like WYSIWYG (What You See Is What You Get).

The Mennonites in Mexico are my people. During the time in the colonies in the Russian Empire (in what is now Ukraine) there were all sorts of manufacturing industries. Farm equipment, engines, and I have seen some documents that suggest they even built automobiles. Long before that time, during our time in Prussia (what is now part of Poland) Mennonites were in demand for engineering water control systems with mechanical wind mills to drain swamp land and create proper irrigation.

But I have one question for you: If an evil person manufactures a product, is that product automatically evil? And if so, how far back does that go? If a good person uses steel produced by an evil person, is the machine that the good person built evil, or good?
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Ken
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Re: Programming for Mennonites?

Post by Ken »

What kind of software are you guys actually talking about? And is it really worth the cost, effort, and bother, versus using off-the-shelf products?

In a former career there was a time when I was in charge of supervising the development of some proprietary software to run a vessel licensing program for one specific commercial fishery in Alaska. And making sure that it talked to our other databases and that clerks in various remote ports around Alaska and vessels at sea could update information seamlessly. It turned out to be huge effort involving multiple contractors and programmers both on-site and remote and took several years before it was completely operational and mostly bug-free. I don't recall the total cost but it was in the millions.

Software is just a tool. To expand on what Neto wrote, if you buy a hammer or wrench at the hardware store, do you fret about the fact that it might have been designed and made by Godless people in China?
Last edited by Ken on Sat Mar 26, 2022 1:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Franklin
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Re: Programming for Mennonites?

Post by Franklin »

I would love to write an OS from scratch, but I am one person and I can't do everything. I think compromise is needed to start a better platform. I tried to focus on the core issue which is development tools. That is why I wrote a programming language Luan. It is written in Java so it is portable to any OS. And it includes replacements for most of the overcomplicated Java libraries so it has no dependencies outside of Java.

I do web programming so I don't yet have a desktop library for Luan, but I could easily add this with Java Swing. Then people could write applications like accounting, CAD, etc. This is the point of me teaching programming to people, so that they can write these kinds of applications. I would support Luan and add whatever is needed for the applications. I think replacing the OS would come last after many applications had been developed. This incremental approach makes this "massive project" possible.
Neto wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 8:36 amIf an evil person manufactures a product, is that product automatically evil?
Design is more important than manufacturing. If an evil person designs a product then that product is automatically evil.
And if so, how far back does that go?
It varies by field. Software was one of the last fields to go bad. Software was mostly good up to 2000. 2000 to 2010 was a transition from good to evil. Since 2010, all software (and everything else) designed by western culture has been bad/evil.
If a good person uses steel produced by an evil person, is the machine that the good person built evil, or good?
Steel is a commodity, so it isn't designed, so the answer is good. But to give another example, my Luan used to use Java libraries designed by evil modern programmers and the result was that this functionality in Luan was unreliable and overcomplicated. So I was forced to replace these evil Java libraries with my own code.
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Neto
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Re: Programming for Mennonites?

Post by Neto »

Franklin wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 1:05 pm I would love to write an OS from scratch, but I am one person and I can't do everything. I think compromise is needed to start a better platform. I tried to focus on the core issue which is development tools. That is why I wrote a programming language Luan. It is written in Java so it is portable to any OS. And it includes replacements for most of the overcomplicated Java libraries so it has no dependencies outside of Java.

I do web programming so I don't yet have a desktop library for Luan, but I could easily add this with Java Swing. Then people could write applications like accounting, CAD, etc. This is the point of me teaching programming to people, so that they can write these kinds of applications. I would support Luan and add whatever is needed for the applications. I think replacing the OS would come last after many applications had been developed. This incremental approach makes this "massive project" possible.
Neto wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 8:36 amIf an evil person manufactures a product, is that product automatically evil?
Design is more important than manufacturing. If an evil person designs a product then that product is automatically evil.
And if so, how far back does that go?
It varies by field. Software was one of the last fields to go bad. Software was mostly good up to 2000. 2000 to 2010 was a transition from good to evil. Since 2010, all software (and everything else) designed by western culture has been bad/evil.
If a good person uses steel produced by an evil person, is the machine that the good person built evil, or good?
Steel is a commodity, so it isn't designed, so the answer is good. But to give another example, my Luan used to use Java libraries designed by evil modern programmers and the result was that this functionality in Luan was unreliable and overcomplicated. So I was forced to replace these evil Java libraries with my own code.
Thank you for your response.
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Robert
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Re: Programming for Mennonites?

Post by Robert »

I am unfamiliar with Luan, but have used PHP, HTML, CSS, Javascript and I have done a lot of scripting in Autohotkey.

How is it set for security since you can pull up the script by adding .luan to the .html link?

DOes Luan have a GUI interface or will a separate one need to be created?
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Franklin
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Re: Programming for Mennonites?

Post by Franklin »

Robert wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 12:27 am How is it set for security since you can pull up the script by adding .luan to the .html link?
Code in /private/ can't be viewed so Luan pages can call code there for private things. The ability to view code by default is intentional, just as it is for HTML. I think that if you have no reason to hide code then you should make it public so others can learn from it.
DOes Luan have a GUI interface or will a separate one need to be created?
Right now there is no desktop GUI but I would make one if one person expressed a serious interest in using it.
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Szdfan
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Re: Programming for Mennonites?

Post by Szdfan »

In 1937, Hitler ordered the production of the “Volkswagen,” a small, simple, affordable automobile based on a Ferdinand Porsche design. The Nazi intended this car for the German masses and created a savings program. A few prototypes were developed, but civilian production was halted with the beginning of WWII. During the war, the factory built for these cars instead built military vehicles and relied on slave labor.

After WWII, the VW beetle became an iconic car in the post-war era and as the car was imported to the US, it also became a symbol of the 60’s counterculture.

You can argue that the VW Beetle was developed by evil people. However, the car was cheap, rather robust, reliable and simple to drive and maintain. Is the VW an evil car?
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Franklin
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Re: Programming for Mennonites?

Post by Franklin »

Szdfan wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 8:08 am You can argue that the VW Beetle was developed by evil people. However, the car was cheap, rather robust, reliable and simple to drive and maintain. Is the VW an evil car?
The Nazis were a mix of good and evil. Today's West is pure evil. This is the difference.
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nett
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Re: Programming for Mennonites?

Post by nett »

Szdfan wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 8:08 am You can argue that the VW Beetle was developed by evil people. However, the car was cheap, rather robust, reliable and simple to drive and maintain. Is the VW an evil car?
I know some VW owners who might say that exact thing after seeing their repair bills :D :D
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