Graphics - 7th Gen CPU on 100 series Intel chipset

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lesterb
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Re: Graphics - 7th Gen CPU on 100 series Intel chipset

Postby lesterb » Thu Mar 09, 2017 12:41 pm

Josh wrote:You could also deploy Linux to them and run Windows 7 inside a VM. That's the easiest way to deal with running an OS on hardware where the vendor is no longer bothering to support modern hardware (and it offers you a lot of good options to lock things down too).

I would switch to Linux before going back to an obsolete or unsupported OS.

I remember when the fight was between MS-DOS and Windows. Microsoft won that fight by introducing a "killer feature", True Type fonts. They've been grappling with finding that killer feature for Windows 10. But whether they do or don't, Windows 10 is an inevitable.

Holdouts will eventually need to switch to Linux. Neto could do that easily enough for the word processor part of his system. But if he's offering an accounting package, he's stuck with Windows for now. That wouldn't need to stop him. Like you said he could use a vm. Or he could see if he can get Quickbooks or Sage (used to be Simply Accounting) working in Vine.
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Re: Graphics - 7th Gen CPU on 100 series Intel chipset

Postby lesterb » Thu Mar 09, 2017 1:30 pm

Neto wrote:
lesterb wrote:
Neto wrote:So it looks like I'll have to hold onto these CPUs until my next system upgrade, when I move to the B250 chipset on Windows 10 (in which I as yet find no redeeming value for the non-internet user).

Are you selling any of these? Does that motherboard support DD4 memory?

I'd like to build a new system for myself sometime. My present system is an iBuyPower full size tower, painted fire engine red. I'd like something in a smaller form factor, but still with lots of power. The i3 doesn't come in quad core or with multi threading, does it?

I dream of a KabyLake i7 overclocked to about 4 GHZ, but the price is too much. Maybe a Ryzen...


I build "word processors" for Amish-owned businesses. I have been working on getting ready to deploy Win 10 systems as I get time over the past year or more. (You can tell that I don't get much extra time.) My next model will be an Intel B250 chipset (almost certainly the MSI B250M Pro-VDH. MSI boards are more solidly built – reinforced – than others I’ve used since Intel dropped out of the Desktop market.), but regardless of whether I get Win 10 ready by then or not, I need to be able to downgrade for customers who want to stick with Win 7. The unfortunate part of this is that I will have to mount a Skylake CPU before I can upgrade the BIOS, at least for my current model, which is running the MSI B150M Pro-VDH MB. MAYBE the B250’s will come with a recent enough BIOS version that this won’t be necessary for those – just thought of that. That would solve a lot of potential problems.

This MB is a Micro-ATX, about 9” square. I’ve been using the Antec NSK3180 case for the locked-down computer systems we also build. (It is a Micro ATX case, a bit smaller than the one I was using previously, until it was discontinued, the Antec NSK4482B. Another really nice case is the MicroATX Antec Minuet350 slimline with a 350 microATX PSU. This one, however, will not take full height expansion cards. I haven’t sold a system using this case yet, but purchased one to evaluate it. It is actually easier to build/work on than the NSK3180, because it has a tray that holds the drives that easily slides out, so you have really open access to the MB. I haven’t looked into any recent Mini-ITX boards, but that would be even smaller. The main thing you loose with those (in general) is that there will only be two RAM slots, and you will be limited to half-height expansion cards, like with the slim-line Micro-ATX one I mentioned above.)
Sorry, got off track. Yes, this MB uses DDR4 RAM. Maximum is either 32 GB or 64 – I don’t recall, as no one has ever asked for a word processor system with more than 16 GB RAM.

Back on the Kaby Lake CPUs – Right now, they seem to be cheaper than their nearest relative in the 6th gen CPUs, about $10.00 less on sale for i3s. (Right now at the vendor that sounds like KNEW Egg.) Like the Kaby Lake i3-7100 (3.9 GHz is going for $109.99, ten dollars less than the i3-6100 Skylake (3.7 GHz). All of the i3 CPUs I’ve been using have hyper-threading, so yes, you get two physical cores, and 2 virtual cores. I don’t know how that compares exactly to the i5s, which have 4 physical cores, and no hyper-threading, but an i5 system I recently built with a 3.3 GHz CPU had slightly better ratings (in the Windows Experience Index – I haven’t done the sort of complicated system tests that computer mags do) than my standard CPU, the i3-6100, which runs at 3.7 GHz. (All i3s are dual core, all i5s are quad core, but none of the i5s have hyper threading. That’s apparently what separates the i5s from the i7s, which DO have hyper-threading.) I did also recently build an i7 locked down computer system for some one with a 4.0 GHz CPU. I just build what I’m asked for…. (I hope someone doesn’t think I’m bragging here – just trying to be helpful, as others have been for me, you included. )

Just curious (I'm not trying to steal your business secrets): What do you use for CPU cooling, and case cooling? My main system is running Ivy Bridge, an i5 3570K. It has a small CPU air cooler and runs around 40 deg C when idling. I had to replace the motherboard a couple of years ago, and I wasn't sure how much thermal compound to use. I overclocked it to the motherboard max once, just for anyhow, and ran it full throttle for a while. But I couldn't get it over 80 deg C.
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Neto
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Re: Graphics - 7th Gen CPU on 100 series Intel chipset

Postby Neto » Thu Mar 09, 2017 5:49 pm

lesterb wrote:Just curious (I'm not trying to steal your business secrets): What do you use for CPU cooling, and case cooling? My main system is running Ivy Bridge, an i5 3570K. It has a small CPU air cooler and runs around 40 deg C when idling. I had to replace the motherboard a couple of years ago, and I wasn't sure how much thermal compound to use. I overclocked it to the motherboard max once, just for anyhow, and ran it full throttle for a while. But I couldn't get it over 80 deg C.


No secrets in that area. I use the heatsink & cooling fan that comes with the CPU, and an additional 80 mm fan. I have added more ventilation and modified the exhaust fan area to accommodate a 92 mm fan on the last batch (30), because a customer of one of the dealers in PA had an issue with overheating in a system that has an add-in graphics card. I'm not sure what to make of that, because I have a number of customers here in Ohio with pretty fast i7s & graphics cards as well, and haven't had any issues with overheating. (I later built another system for the same customer, and at his request I added two more fans, one exhausting, and one throwing air right onto the graphics card. I didn't really think it was necessary, and kind of lost on the deal because of so much extra hand work, but the customer is always right...) Well, actually, just once. One of these i7 systems kept shutting down after a while. When I pulled the CPU cooler, I found that there was not enough thermal compound there to make a good heat transfer. (I don't add any to what Intel puts on, unless I've removed it. That is the only time I've seen insufficient compound on an Intel CPU.) Some guys that are really pushing the CPU will work over the surface of the heatsink, and maybe the CPU as well, but I've never done that. (I also don't ever over-clock these. Partly because I don't know what I'm doing with that sort of thing, and also because very few of these systems go into air conditioned offices - some places are so hot one office worker I know eventually took another job, at another company, because he would pass out from the heat in his office - afternoon sun. Even then, that word processor has never shut down because of heat.)

But in regards to how much thermal compound to use, if I pull one, I just make sure the entire surface is covered. That's how they look with the amount Intel puts on, in every case I've seen, except that once. I've never used the peal & stick thermal pads myself, but did get some direct shipped to a dealer who was going to need to reseat a CPU heatsink for the first time. I just wanted to make it as easy for him as possible.

[Edited to add: In respect to what I said about adding more fans, etc, I should have explained that the word processors are built into custom cabinets (solid Oak, actually) that we designed, so as to make them distinctively different than any computer case available on the open market.]
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Josh
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Re: Graphics - 7th Gen CPU on 100 series Intel chipset

Postby Josh » Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:11 pm

A bigger challenge will be when QuickBooks standalone isn't maintained anymore and we are required to go to a cloud based solution (currently QuickBooks Online).
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Neto
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Re: Graphics - 7th Gen CPU on 100 series Intel chipset

Postby Neto » Fri Mar 10, 2017 7:21 am

Josh wrote:A bigger challenge will be when QuickBooks standalone isn't maintained anymore and we are required to go to a cloud based solution (currently QuickBooks Online).


It is already rather difficult to get QB Enterprise Solutions in a non-subscription package. (Only as the Accountant version, or, if you already had the non-subscription version before, and just don't give up, and pull a few strings as well.) Premier is only available in licenses for up to 5 users (or more to the point, you can only have 5 users logged into the same company file at a time). Actually, I suspect that Microsoft may have plans to migrate Windows 10 into a thin client operating system. They did say that "Windows 10 is the last Windows". That may mean that the next OS will be called something else - there are signs of that in Win 10 already. But we all know that their objective is to move to a totally subscription-based model. There are some other more powerful accounting options available, but they are very expensive, and generally not as user-friendly (from what I've heard from those who use them). But perhaps of equal importance, accountants in general don't like them, because it means they would have to learn another program in order to be able to help their customers. (The two I know the most about also use the internet to maintain the installations, and have few trainers/assistants or even sales people in areas outside their corporate locations.)
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Re: Graphics - 7th Gen CPU on 100 series Intel chipset

Postby lesterb » Fri Mar 10, 2017 11:44 am

Neto wrote:
Josh wrote:A bigger challenge will be when QuickBooks standalone isn't maintained anymore and we are required to go to a cloud based solution (currently QuickBooks Online).


It is already rather difficult to get QB Enterprise Solutions in a non-subscription package. (Only as the Accountant version, or, if you already had the non-subscription version before, and just don't give up, and pull a few strings as well.) Premier is only available in licenses for up to 5 users (or more to the point, you can only have 5 users logged into the same company file at a time). Actually, I suspect that Microsoft may have plans to migrate Windows 10 into a thin client operating system. They did say that "Windows 10 is the last Windows". That may mean that the next OS will be called something else - there are signs of that in Win 10 already. But we all know that their objective is to move to a totally subscription-based model. There are some other more powerful accounting options available, but they are very expensive, and generally not as user-friendly (from what I've heard from those who use them). But perhaps of equal importance, accountants in general don't like them, because it means they would have to learn another program in order to be able to help their customers. (The two I know the most about also use the internet to maintain the installations, and have few trainers/assistants or even sales people in areas outside their corporate locations.)

The accountants back in Ontario tended to steer clear of Quickbooks because it was too easy to fudge the system by deleting entries. They preferred a package that forced you to make correcting entries. Mostly they recommended Simply Accounting, which I think is called Sage, now. It gives you a more complete audit trail.

But here in Alberta, they seem to like Quickbooks. But most accountants can handle files from either one.
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Re: Graphics - 7th Gen CPU on 100 series Intel chipset

Postby Haystack » Fri Mar 10, 2017 6:43 pm

Neto wrote:But in regards to how much thermal compound to use, if I pull one, I just make sure the entire surface is covered. That's how they look with the amount Intel puts on, in every case I've seen, except that once.


A pea sized dot in the middle of the cpu will ensure enough coverage when the heatsink is mounted onto the cpu. The compound pre-applied to the Intel coolers over the whole surface is measured out to be the right amount. Too much thermal paste can be just as bad as not enough.
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